Melissa Smith from the podcast “High Vibe Mindset” invited me to talk about emotional growth with the Enneagram types. Scroll down for a transcript.

Transcript

Melissa Smith: I've got a special Enneagram episode today. We are going to Bust some myths and talk about how Enneagram is helpful and the ways we might use it that's not helpful. You're gonna learn what the Enneagram is and how it can be used in your life as a tool for empowerment and for self reflection and growth and the Enneagram is one that I think is starting to become a little bit more popular.

But maybe you're more familiar with Myers Briggs or the DISC personality, used a lot in different workplaces, but the Enneagram is another tool. And I'm super excited for the expert guests I have on today because I love the way that she uses the Enneagram. She's a therapist and she integrates this tool into her therapy work.

Joanne is a therapist-turned Feelings Translator who helps Highly Sensitive Persons turn their biggest feelings into their greatest superpower.

The people who work with her are often the first or the only person in their family or communities that intuitively process and express feelings. And consequently, they're often judged or criticized. So they end up learning how to please, placate, or perform until they hit a wall. They're super familiar with anxiety, guilt, and shame, partly because of an allergic reaction to anger — their own or others’.

Often these super responsible, empathetic persons will reach out to Joanne after they've already burned out they're in those resentful lopsided relationships or they've been sucked into their shame spiral.

When Joanne shares her approach about how to work with feelings, the number one response she tends to get is,

“Why didn't they teach me this in school??”

She has a really awesome free guide, it's called the Big Feeler First Aid Kit.

It helps you learn how to navigate your feelings when they show up when you least expect them or want them. And you can go ahead and grab that free guide at www.intelligentemotions.com/firstaidkit.

All right, let's dive into the episode, Joanne. I'm so excited for this conversation and to kick it off. I would love for you to share a little bit of background on the Enneagram.

What is the Enneagram and how it's been used historically?

Joanne Kim: The Enneagram is a a personality framework that compared to other things like Myers Briggs, StrengthsFinders, things that often track WHAT people do as their patterns. The Enneagram tracks WHY we do what we do.

So it's more about motivations. unconscious needs, fears, longings that often like drive us from behind the scenes. And so we don't know that it's happening. Often the people around us have a clearer idea.

Melissa Smith: That makes sense. Okay. So a lot of the fears and the needs. So, I would love to talk about how that shows up for the different Enneagram types, but what are the types or what could you if you sat down and you're trying to figure out what your Enneagram type is? What does that kind of look like?

Joanne Kim: Well, I would like to say that it's a simple framework. It does become very powerful once we locate our type, though in a lot of ways there are some exceptions to the rule.

A lot of what we've heard about the Enneagram, especially like social media and recent books, only cover about the nine types. “Ennea” means nine, “gram” means points, so it's like nine points. And generally, these are nine themes that we all resonate with, we just get STUCK in one. It's just that there are some variations within the type that maybe go the opposite direction.

Sometimes it's helpful to use 27 subtypes, instead of nine. But in looking at the different types in order to find out what your main type is, we look at some of your historical triggers. Like when you look back on the times you felt the most excited or you felt the most heartbroken, what are the common denominator themes?

For some people might be feeling FOMO or feeling like they have all these big aspirations, but there's something inherently wrong or flawed about them or constantly feeling frustrated because they're trying to improve things, but just things don't quite turn out the way that they want to. And so on so forth.

So we look for the themes, and that is one of the reasons why the Enneagram is harder to type for. It takes more time than taking a quick online test, but the end result is that much more rewarding because we locked down what remained invisible up till then.

Melissa Smith: That's a helpful way to see it because I think I noticed a lot of that feeling like I resonate but like you said, but really getting down to those core themes… what's a core fear that's coming up? What's that loop in my head when I'm in a situation before we dive into maybe each of those types and the subtypes, I would love to hear what you observed as a helpful versus not helpful way of using the Enneagram. So that people can understand, you know, we're going to talk a little bit more about what it is and what the types are. To help listeners to maybe figure out their type on this episode, maybe not. It a little more work than that.

What's the purpose of using the Enneagram and what's a good, helpful way to use it?

Joanne Kim: Yeah, I would say any tool or framework that taps into people's vulnerabilities has a very deep transformational potential for our inner work. But it also is a double edged sword because in the hands of people who misuse it or their own egos take over, a lot of people can wield that power poorly or kind of against other people.

So, the discovering our own Enneagram type is inherently a very personal journey. We ought to give ourselves permission and time to really sit with the different themes and to see which one actually resonates with us, especially because some of the types happen to be more shapeshifters. It kind of depends on who we happen to be around.

But after we find out our type, Whenever we reveal our type to other people, other people ought to know that that is a very vulnerable step. We're not sharing our types with others so that others… I mean, it's like we're kind of giving other people access to kind of our biggest fears. Right? And so I would say there are some people who like announce their type on the internet.

Like, I'm such and such type, and therefore like, this is just who I am. Actually, our type is not who we are, it's what we believe we are. So it's what we've pigeonholed ourselves into. So our type is our starting point in our growth journey. Our goal is to grow beyond the type. So when we hear about another person's type, it's like we're only getting a snapshot of where they are and historically what their patterns have been. It doesn't say anything about who they can become.

Melissa Smith: Yeah, that's super important.

Joanne Kim: So, actually, the more a person's done their personal work, the harder it is to tell what their type is. Because our types are basically concentrated doses of our psychological defense mechanisms. So people who ironically tend to feel very proud of their type might actually be announcing that they're stuck in their defense mechanism.

It is a very useful framework because it gives us a lot more complexity and dimension. But again, that's part of the reason why it's harder to type for in the beginning and often a lot of the reasons why some people might just dismiss it outright. It's like, well, how accurate is it really?

We're finding more and more. It's been a framework that's been around for thousands of years. Though it's been mostly passed down through oral tradition because, you know, spiritual teachers who are teaching their pupils wisely instructed their pupils to not write this down, because in the hands of the wrong people, it can cause a lot of damage.

But Berkeley students did as Berkeley students do in that they went against their teachers, they wrote it down on paper in the 1970s. What we've known about the Enneagram since then is that version.

And so we're still uncovering more and more about the Enneagram finding out that there are bits and pieces that actually have been reflective in a lot of ancient traditions. Like the Seven Deadly Sins that's been around for hundreds of years. You just add on two more, it becomes Nine Deadly Sins. And so it is a very rich framework and it seems like it's also kind of ever evolving. And so one of the reasons why I really appreciate it instead of like a rigid fixed thing.

Benefits of the Enneagram

Melissa Smith: Yeah, there's so many layers to it. Cause I saw it online. I would see a lot of posts like this is this type strength or weakness. And then again, you know, okay, now we're all talking about the fears and the needs, the deadly sins. Give you the awareness and like you said, sit with it. A lot of layers and information to that.

We kind of spoke on a little bit of, how the Enneagram can be a tool for self growth and self awareness. It obviously has various archetypal type of themes that I need to dive into. But for you personally, what have you seen as some of those major themes and like the benefits that we can discover when we're using the Enneagram as a tool?

Joanne Kim: Well, so my Enneagram type is Type Four. Sometimes it's known as the individualist, sometimes it's known as the Romantic. Sometimes the terminology is very limited because it talks about what people do versus why. I'm also a therapist by training and it just so happens that therapy itself is like the Type Four's playground because Four's are often like the navelgazers who want to go internal and do all this introspection about who they are and what matters to them, what reflects them as an individual and all that stuff.

And therapy is actually built exactly for that purpose. It's just that a lot of Fours seek therapy thinking that they'll be able to heal or whatever, only to find that they're recycling the same thing. So I think in a lot of cases, Fours actually need more coaching than they do therapy.

But for myself, because I was already very internal, I had mistakenly assumed that I have a monopoly on what authenticity is, like,

• “No one understands me”,

• “Everyone's going to misunderstand me”.

• “What's the point of explaining to them and all that kind of stuff”.

It wasn't until I really got into the Enneagram and I found out that this was actually a type structure. I was like, crap, I'm basically doing this to myself. I'm actually creating my own suffering but I'm not the only person who deals with this. There's like a whole subpopulation of people who all kind of operate the same way. And if they conclude that their life is tragic, but everyone around them are like, why are you so upset? Then maybe it's the person creating their own narrative of suffering for themselves.

And I think that kind of like blew open a whole process where I was just reevaluating my own experiences. And it's not to say that I haven't gone through hard things, but I definitely made it emotionally more difficult. Yeah, because my type framework identifies with being a sufferer. It's as if I have to be suffering at all times in order for me to matter, which to those who are not Fours might sound like, what how does that even work?

But if someone, if a Four is listening to this and like, wait yeah that's that's how things are, right? No, it's not. So that's been super helpful. It's definitely super charged my own healing and growth process.

Melissa Smith: Yeah, I believe I'm a Four as well, but it's really funny because at first I thought I was a Seven. But I was only a Seven for like a short period of time. I had all the depressive, self-shame, self-whatever stuff my whole life. It's funny too, because now I've been in this process of like, who am I and how do I be more like authentic?

It is my word of the year. I have the know that. It's that journey of like, am I like a seven or am I like a three? Because I am ambitious, but I also have FOMO. But when you realize, okay, but what's really happening in these interactions and what I'm striving for at the end of the day, 

When I first came across the Enneagram, something told me like, oh, you could be like a Four, you were very Four when you were in elementary, middle school and high school, but maybe you're not. I saw the terrible side of it for some reason, maybe I just read into the negativity online about fours, and I'm like, oh, I don't want to be a Four. No, that's terrible. And kind of convinced myself, like, there's no way I'm a Four, you know, that ordeal. And really, I think those are the ways, too, that people can really use the Enneagram in a way that's not going to benefit them, right? Like, kind of just zero in on, oh, these traits are positive. I want the positive traits, and I think, want to be like that type.

Joanne Kim: Well, I think in a lot of ways, that's the byproduct of very simplistic teaching on the Enneagram. Right. Like the 1970s, it feels like a long time ago, but, you know, historically speaking, it's really not that long ago. And so if what we have heard about it is the more rudimentary version of it. It's like that there are nine types, what each of the types tend to look like or how they operate what happens in like their, I mean, some people call it the path to growth and the path of stress.

Right. It's very super simplistic. Since then, cause I've been trained under Beatrice Chestnut, who is also a therapist by training. She's been really taking the torch to integrate the Enneagram and psychology together and introducing also the subtypes. It's it's actually much more complicated than that.

In order for someone to have like a teaching platform, they really have to know the fuller picture of what the Enneagram, like how that framework works. Instead of taking this part of it and then disseminating that information because people will draw all kinds of conclusions. There's a ton of people who reach out to me.

Some people who know their Enneagram type and they're like, well, I'm such and such a type. And you know, this page says that when I'm super healthy, I become this type. And when I'm super unhealthy, I become this type. And then I just tell them, that's only half a picture. Right. And so there's a lot of shame, extra shame that people either put on themselves or they dump on other people based on these very elementary frameworks. That's partially why we really got to put the brakes on in really taking our time to learn about the Enneagram more comprehensively. I mean, I think that in a lot of ways.

It's becoming more popular these days. It's kind of like the next BuzzFeed quiz. It's like, what kind of cupcake are you? It's along those lines, an easy cocktail party topic. But this is probably not one of the topics that lend itself well, especially because it's dealing with people's core needs.

Melissa Smith: When you dive in and you really see it, it's like you said, it's so transformational, it will put you through that dark night of the soul, right? It's going to be like, whoa, crazy. You really get a better understanding of yourself, but it also can help you be more empathetic to other people. I think it's awesome in that way, but it is funny because those are the type of things I think that are more seen or popularized are those Enneagram posts that are a photo of someone. And I wear this type of outfit and I drink this type of drink because I'm a Seven, you know, I'm the rebel, whatever.

Okay. So let's dive into then and share with listeners a little bit about those nine types and just your observations on those different nine types.

Enneagram One - The Improver

Joanne Kim: I think it might be easiest to go through the nine themes instead of going in like deep dive. I do have a blog post that I'll share the link to if someone wants to do, like find out what their type is in a DIY format.

But the nine themes in order of type are, you know, starting with type One is about improving. So Ones I like to think of them as the idealist who has like such lofty standards and then they get frustrated because the reality of where they are now, there's such a huge gap between that and what they think things should be. And so improver that mode shows up in ways that they either improve themselves, they improve other people, they improve the situation, or they make themselves the role model that other people ought to follow.

So often the emotional energy that goes with that is anger, but not like the outward expressive kind. It's more like the seething quiet behind scenes, like stewing resentment version. And so oftentimes Ones have a very like, like stoic or stern face, with kind of some wrinkle on their brow because their attention is towards how can this be better? They often have noble intentions because they really want what's better for themselves or the other person. But, when that goes overboard, they end up accidentally becoming very critical.

And so everyone can have an inner critic, but for once the inner critic's going on 25-7. It's non stop, it's relentless, it's like the person is living as if they're always in a courtroom. Or there's always a judge. There's always a defendant. There's always a plaintiff. So, Ones can in a way always be stuck in like work mode because there's always something to do, always something to improve, something to fix. And they have a really hard time going with the flow and being at ease and resting they often get resentful at other people who take time off and things like that when it's actually a signal for them to really be taking time off themselves.

Melissa Smith: Yeah. Mm hmm. Would perfectionism be something that is an energy that shows up for them or something different?

Joanne Kim: Yeah. And so that kind of depends on like the subtypes. So there are three different kinds of ones. And so the person who improves themselves, that will be the true perfectionist. The person who becomes the role model, they often take like a teacher type of vibe.

And then, the person who tries to improve others, they're like the reformer or the zealot. They're very fiery. So, each we kind of need to learn how to round out within our type. And then also among the other types too. Because our type and our subtype is actually where we get stuck. We live as if that's the only way to live and gotta need to soften that up a lot.

Enneagram Two - The Befriender

The type Twos, I like calling them the befrienders. Sometimes they're called the givers and the helpers, but again, that's focusing on the behavior, not the motivation. I like calling them befrienders and it's a term I borrow from my teacher because the reason why Twos often are in helping roles is so that they can get something in return. Their main focus, their theme is around connection relationships being liked, being loved, it’s very other people focused.

So I would say like 95 percent of their attention probably is about other people. Rarely do they actually think about themselves, except, think about themselves in relation to someone else. Often, these are the folks who will gravitate towards helping professions, only to find out that because they haven't been thinking about their own wants and needs, eventually their body catches up with them and they get super resentful.

Similar to Ones but it's different in that it's a resentment about there being such an imbalance. in relationships. Other people are receiving their help, but that other person isn't particularly thinking about, you know, reciprocating and things like that. So a lot of imbalanced relationships. There's kind of this pride or arrogance in the two that, considers, I know the other person's needs better than they know their needs.

I have to make myself indispensable. It's kind of like a manipulative way of ensuring that there's some connection. Because the core fear is if I don't have connection I won't survive. If I'm not liked if I'm not loved then I'm gonna be devastated. Again, even those who aren't Twos might resonate with that in some ways But for Twos, that's like the central. So yeah, I would say that Twos, because they're so focused on other people and less so on themselves. Two's are probably one of the types that are the most misunderstood in the Enneagram community. Because it's really hard for everyone else to learn about someone who doesn't quite know themselves to explain what's going on behind the scenes. It just so happens that my teacher is herself a Two. And so doing her own work, she's finally like revealed what's behind the curtain.

Melissa Smith: And then they would have a subtypes too? Maybe something that's a very much like a caregiver.

Joanne Kim: It surrounds a different ways of seducing or charming others. So, one way of seducing is like being very young and cutesy, like, Oh, you know, I don't know how to take care of this thing. Like, what will I do? And then someone who's like, Oh, I can do it. They get like the more powerful, the strong or older person to come to their rescue. So it's the, the charm or seduction as if they're a child. And then there's the seduction of capturing the attention of an audience. So this is more of the if we think about the younger Two as like the princess. Then this would be like the empress, this very like power oriented, very good at in corporate settings, knowing where the hierarchies are and kind of working the room. And then my, which is the classic seductive types, like the femme fatale, like, seducing a chosen person that can be a best friend.

It can be a romantic partner meeting that person's needs so that that person can meet all their needs. So, if you think about, like, the sirens in the Odyssey, where they're singing and they're luring sailors to come towards the shore and then the boat crashes into the rocks and then that leads to a deadly ending. And that's kind of what that version of Twos look like. But all three of them have something to do with this gift to get dynamic, or this charming, seductive, shapeshifting piece. So sometimes Twos can be harder to type because they shapeshift to be more likable. Kind of depends on their relationship context.

Melissa Smith: Okay. Yeah. So the needs, you know, you mentioned it being about wanting love, wanting affection, obviously, like people pleasing, they're trying to love bomb at first, or let me do all these things for you. Let me wow you let me give you all this love. But hey, I expect to take care of me like the princess archetype or something.

Joanne Kim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That might not actually be very conscious. For them, they might not, they might think of themselves as being super generous. It's not until like way later, they're like, after all I did for you! And so that's part of the hard thing is that if they aren't aware of that particular piece and knowing that, I mean, even acknowledging that they also have needs, that's a super difficult part for Twos. And so they could have gotten their needs met sooner, had they even acknowledged that they had needs like everyone else and that it's okay to have needs, it feels very humiliating.

Melissa Smith: Is this also kind of like a codependency thing? Like I need a connection. I need the other person I'm going to take care of you, but I need someone to take care of me. Like we need to do this together. I can't do this on my own type of thing.

Joanne Kim: There are several types that can have that pattern, just for different reasons. Two is one of them that is, out of the nine, the most obviously relationship oriented. But someone else can have that set up because they're very unsure of their own abilities. They feel like they don't have the power or the strength to do so this might might be more out of a sense of like imposter syndrome or lack of confidence instead of like, I need to be with another person, you know?

Yeah, like what I just mentioned is what type Sixes can do like a Nine version of doing that, is the person just doesn't want to make their own decisions. And so it's just easier to be around other people. But yes, type Twos tend to be more host or hostess, right?

It's like welcoming people into their home kind of thing. I think that a variation of that is the parasite host dynamic, where it's as if they have to constantly be fused with someone else in order to feel okay. In reality, what Twos don't often realize is they're actually okay being on their own and spending time with themselves, but that's like in more in their blind spot.

So when a Two hears this for the first time, they're like, that sounds terrible, but it's actually technically part of their growth work.

Enneagram Three - The Performer

Joanne Kim: Type Threes main theme for them would be the performer. Sometimes they're known as the achiever, but that focuses on what they do. The main thing to focus on is that they need an audience. It's not just about doing a lot of things. It's about doing a lot of things and looking good while doing it.

Right. And so, in a sense Twos and Threes are also shapeshifters in that they're doing things because of other people. Threes are also one of the types that are very disconnected from themselves, so they don't quite know what their own individual agenda is. They're gauging their environment and sensing, okay, what are the metrics of success here?

What are things that people admire? And let me become that. And so often Threes get a lot of accolade, they get a lot of praise for what they do, not knowing that that's actually part of the ego at work. So I'm in the middle of the Silicon Valley tech world, entrepreneurial, like there's a lot of good stuff happening here. But it's also the place where those who are type Threes hide the most. What they think is great is actually, you know, ego driven psychological defense mechanisms. And so the challenge with Threes is that the very thing that keeps them trapped is the very thing that's celebrated, at least in this part of the world.

And so, especially in the United States I think a lot of Threes would have the hardest time doing their personal word because, why would they go away from the reward system? That celebrates them for like looking good, very image-oriented brand focus, wanting to have what's the best, but the best in other people's eyes. There's a lot of sadness that's very deep under the surface, uh, and that is what Threes need to get in touch with for them to really know who they are as their own person, their own individual self.

Melissa Smith: Okay. Yeah, you mentioned for One, there's a lot of anger, underneath. Three, it's sadness.

Joanne Kim: Well, Three is they're disconnected from sadness. They actually need to be more connected with it. So it's like, there's an inverted relationship in that sadness is one of the emotions that highlight our individuality. Like, it tells us what really matters to us. But when someone's shut that down for the sake of being what other people want them to be, there's that inherent sadness that comes from losing connection with oneself. But that is part of what Threes blocked out.

It's like they're sad about not connecting with what matters to them. And they're also sad that they don't even know who they are. But that is something that Threes who've done some work come to recognize. It's still there, even if they're not aware of it. But usually it's what it's super loud when Threes have worked themselves down to the bone, their body shut down, they get sick, they're bedridden. And then what do they do in bed? All these feelings that have been buried come up. And they're like, I need to not feel like this anymore. I need to hurry up and get better so I can get back to work. Right? So it's that trap that we get stuck in.

The Twos in a sense also have a sadness theme too, in that they've also disconnected from themselves, except they probably are more in touch with sadness, or they might use it as a way of seducing in ways that differently from Threes, in that they just shut it down because it feels like a very inefficient emotion. They have too much work to do, sadness just slows them down.

Enneagram Four - The Romantic

Joanne Kim: So in comparison to those two types, type Four which I like the term the individualist instead of the romantic. Type Four overdoes sadness in that everything that other people underly feel, the Four feels extra strongly in that part of that is to be a distinct individual to be unique, to be special. It's always this sense of being the exception to the rule that really appeals to Fours. And so if you think about like in a family or an organization, someone who tends to be the black sheep.

Melissa Smith: Yep, black sheep!

Joanne Kim: Yep. Black sheep, rebel, whistleblower, the lost child, like all of those terms. Those are very Four-ish roles. That people of other types can also feel too, but type Four, that person has that as their personality. It's like even when they're in an environment where they're, you know, everyone knows that they're a very integral part of the community, the Four feels like they're the oddball out, that they're always on the outside looking in.

So, in that sense, there's like a tension between the heart types: Twos, Threes, and Fours. Twos and Threes disconnect from their authentic selves to connect with other people. Fours go the opposite direction, they choose connection with themselves, but they disconnect from other people. And so in that sense there's extra sadness. Sadness can be itself a security blankie. So Twos and Threes need to do sadness more, Fours need to do sadness less. Partially by recognizing that things aren't as bad as they think it has to be. Or that what they want isn't as elusive and far away as they think it is. It's actually maybe already available to them. It's just, that's what's in Four’s blindspot.

Melissa Smith: Anytime I make a tag, it's like creative rebel and always rebel or black sheep and all those things. But what is some of those core fears? Like, where does that sadness come from? You said being misunderstood. I think that makes sense. Or being the odd ball out. Any other?

Joanne Kim: I think that's like the outer layer. It's what's more visible. Because as a Four, like I've definitely used being misunderstood as a way of justifying the way I live my life, right? And so a level deeper actually ironically is the fear of goodness. Which is not what Fours are known for. It's being so afraid of connecting with our goodness, with goodness of life because it's like if we have connection to goodness then that exposes us to risk of losing it. Let's just skip all that risk and just assume that we don't have it to begin with.

So it makes a lot of sense in that way but it doesn't make sense in that we live as if that's like the all encompassing truth that therefore we don't deserve to have goodness. So we take the good thing and we take it way too far. So all the other types. But in that sense, like what we know about the Fours, melancholy, longing, all that stuff, that's just a surface level pattern that we see deeply buried underneath.

And often when Fours hear this, they sometimes glitch out. They're like, what does that even mean? I'm scared of goodness. I've been wanting goodness this whole time. But when they really do that exploration, well, every time something good's happened, I've sabotaged it. They have a hard time sitting with it and allowing that to actually see them.

Melissa Smith: Makes sense because I would love all this stuff or I want friends or whatever, but I'm not good enough or I'm the oddball. Obviously, we feel like we want those things. But like you said, the fear of goodness. A big lesson for me. I did a family constellation thing with my mom's Brazilian and they have, you know, people act out what's the dynamic what's going on here and my big theme was fear of success.

I'm like, that is so weird. I'm like, well, duh, fear of failure. But like fear of success, you know, and person acted me out. Laughing or looking away, being embarrassed, like not able to look success in the eye. I have some deep-seated beliefs here of, you know, success is just not, not a thing for me, or there's some fear there, like you said.

Joanne Kim: Yeah, yeah, so the central theme. I did call, of course, the individualist, and the exception to the rule, but the central theme is around suffering. And the subtypes of Fours is that there's some people who overly suffer outwardly. It's like, woe is me. Everything's terrible. So everyone else and their mama knows how they're suffering.

And then there's some people, some Fours who make other people suffer. It's like, how dare you make me feel this way? I'm going to go after you. So first is a sad Four. The second is an angry Four. And then there's the Four that doesn't look like a Four which is the subtype I happen to be, where they suffer silently alone.

So nobody around them except like the closest people has any idea just how much this person has taken on. And so this type of four actually can look like a lot of the other types. Just essential piece is it kind of depends on their mood. And so there's a lot of identifying with suffering. It's like, I need to be always suffering for me to feel like I'm okay. Again, to other types are like, why? But to Fours, it's like, that's, that's just life. That's just how it is. And so the idea of taking that off, it feels terrifying.

Enneagram Five - The Observer

Joanne Kim: Fives, I like thinking of them as the observers in that they're like the people who live in a fortress with thick walls high up in the ivory tower and they're looking down at the world from a distance and that they're very much in their heads. They engage the world through their intellect instead of actually engaging life by being in it. And in that sense, the, their strength is in seeing things more neutrally, more objectively, whereas Twos, Threes, and Fours, and like other people, have a hard time having a more balanced view. But the downside is that's at the cost of them having shut down their hearts. So Fives often feel like they're different in that they're kind of awkward, they don't really know how to interact with people.

Part of that is from this fear that if I open up this fortress door, other people are going to come in and they're going to take everything I have. They're going to take all my energy, they're going to take all my resources, and I'm going to be left with nothing. And that is probably the core fear, the fear of being depleted.

It's just that normally, Fives live anticipating depletion, so they like ration out every single part of their day to make sure that at the end of it, they'll still have enough. It's just, though, in actuality, and it's more evident for other people that the Five lives, starts their day with 20 percent battery life instead of 100 percent. And they're like, okay, I need to dedicate 1 percent to this and 2 percent to that and they're like constantly in scarcity mode. So anytime something new or unexpected happens, they're like, oh my gosh, I only have so much left. Like, what am I going to do? And then they panic and they shut down.

Melissa Smith: Do you think that starting with the 20 percent is just genuine, for whatever reason, they have less energy or is it also more like the belief of like, Oh, I, there's no way I have a hundred percent.

Joanne Kim: It's the second. Their fear is around abundance. So they need to recognize that they actually have access to the abundance of life, that they have lots of resources instead of needing to keep their fortress door locked. If they open it up, And integrate with the rest of the world, then even when they use up their rations, well, they can rely on other people to bring in more and replenish. But that is not an assumption that they have. And so often Fives, even when they're like given a million dollars. They're like, I don't know if I'm going to have enough. And this always calculating like, okay, these are the ways where it's not going to be enough. And this over rationalizing. So, their main engine is around fear, though, being disconnected from their hearts. They don't even know that it's fear because they rationalized that it's just them being smart.

Enneagram Six - The Questioner

Joanne Kim: I like the word Questioner, sometimes they're called the Devil's Advocate or the Loyalist and those things also apply too. But, for sixes, there's more active fears, more of this frenetic energy, like, oh, like I need to make sure that my radar is on at all times because I can't be caught off guard.

So they tend to be like Chicken Little, like the sky is falling or the sky can fall at any time. It's like the, what if something bad happens? And so in that sense, they tend to think about every single situation about the worst case scenarios and then prepare for all of that. So, you know, if something goes sideways in actuality, Sixes are your people. You want to make sure you stick close to them because they probably already thought about it. But the downside is they can't relax. Because if they relax and they let down their guard, what if something terrible happens, and then it's kind of that thing recycling again. So it's exhausting. Their bodies pay the toll for that and other people experience Sixes as being overly negative, even though in the Sixes mind, it's like, it's just me being rational and practical.

And again, that there again is that self-justifying dynamic of that's reflective in each type, but the sixes are around safety, security, trust. They often question authority figures, not knowing that it's because they've disowned their own power. If someone knows their own power, even if an authority figure tells them what to do, it doesn't rattle them. It's like, yeah, this is what this job requires. Instead of, this person's like trying to control me. They go too far with that.

Melissa Smith: Making me think too of a lot of someone who might, just mistrust a lot. Conspiracy theorists.

Joanne Kim: Yeah. Like with Fours, there's a lot of variation within the subtypes of Sixes. So some people are like actively questioning it. It's like the fight mode as an expression of fear. Some people though actually align with those conspiracy theories or people with a lot of power and strength. They're like, oh my gosh, if I stick with this person who's very powerful, then I'll be okay. Yeah. So Sixes are also kind of harder to type for. And so if Fives are very neutral and sixes are actively negative…

Enneagram Seven - The Enthusiast

Joanne Kim: Sevens are actively positive, and this is like everyone's favorite person because there's a life of the party. They're super fun because they're constantly looking for what's good, what's positive, what's okay, what could be, what the possibilities are.

And in that they're excellent at brainstorming things, coming up with wild dreams and ideas, but their limitation is that they get bored very easily. So they are good at starting projects, but not very good at following through with them. And on the surface, there's a lot of this high positive energy, but at the core of it, there is a deep fear of being trapped in pain.

So it's kind of the exact opposite of Fours. Fours are trapped, but Fours are scared of connecting with goodness, so they overdo negativity. Sevens are scared of negativity, and so they overdo good. It's just because the nature of how their patterns show up, they get rewarded. Everyone thinks that they're great, but the people who get really pissed off are the family members and the partners and the co-workers, people that they're working alongside. Because these folks need to be extra responsible for the ways that the Seven is not taking responsibility. So the term for Sevens is the enthusiast, seeing things in a more positive way.

Melissa Smith: I thought I was a seven and even one of my best friends of 20 years. Can see me as the Four and the Seven because it's very FOMO life of the party all this I know myself that I don't come from that everything has to be almost like that toxic positivity. I can really bring them down and get philosophical. All the time very easily, but the Seven kind of makes me think of the comedian trope or the person that has to be very outgoing trying to run away from the pain, right?

Joanne Kim: Yeah, yeah, I think because you mentioned that you're Brazilian, right? There's a possibility that it might be a cultural influence too. You know, and so I would say Brazil is a very Seven-ish country. In that even people who are not type Sevens, those who have that culture's influence might look Seven-ish So there's part of that as an option and there's a specific type of Four that actually looks like Sevens.

Melissa Smith: Okay, interesting.

Joanne Kim: So if you're looking into subtypes, every type has three versions according to the instincts, self-preservation, social and sexual. Those are the three instincts we all have, but one of them takes the driver's seat and then one of them is shoved into the trunk. And so your combination of your type Four and whatever your dominant instinct is, it might also be partially why you might show up like a Seven at some point. That's for further exploration later. Like for me, I am the self reservation Four. And so in the sense that I don't look like a four, part of that is because I definitely have big feelings on the inside, but I don't always show it on the outside. I turn on a specific mode when I'm in public. So there's a possibility that if you are type Four, then you might be self preservation Four.

Melissa Smith: Awesome. Well, people will benefit from working with you and learning more and getting into the more of the subtypes and everything.

Enneagram Eight - The Challenger

Joanne Kim: I think of Eights as sledgehammers. Where it's about big impact, maximum output. It's they're super high level, high visionaries in that they want to seek whatever has the most like direct outcome. And they tend to have a lot of impatience for the nitty gritty details. A lot of their theme is around power. Strength being active, but what's not as visible is that it's out of a fear of being vulnerable and at the mercy of other people.

And so they basically overcompensate with strength so that they don't have to get in touch with their weakness. So oftentimes people who think their Eights are very good at like tolerating like negative feedback because they don't really care about what other people think. At least that's what it seems, but on the inside, they extra care about what other people think, but they don't want to allow themselves to go there, so they kind of end up putting up this very extra tough persona.

But you know those people who act all tough, but then when someone slices them, they zero in on that person. Vengeance is one of the key themes of type Eight. So it's like the inability to let things go and to be forgiving and to start afresh. These people tend to be at high levels of a company, lots of CEOs, lots of bosses, and they tend to steamroll over other people. But as companies are designed often they're celebrated for the work because there's maximum impact.

We just don't know what the body count is, because those people probably have been fired, they probably left. And so, there are a lot of people in the Silicon Valley who probably are very Eight-ish. It's just that people who aren't Eight-ish aren't likely to stick around to actually go against them. So it sometimes ends up creating a very toxic environment because the Eight believes that their perception is the absolute capital T truth. Yeah, so it's not until they run into some situation where their body's collapsing from overworking that they then confront their own limitation and mortality. But it is not often a path that the Eight chooses voluntarily.

Enneagram Nine - The Harmonizer

Joanne Kim: And then ending it with Nines. I like the word harmonizer, even though some people use the word mediator or peacemaker, because even though peacemaking and mediating is what Nines often do, it's not necessarily for the sake of improving relationships with people.

It's really so that they feel comfortable. The deadly sin for nines is sloth and that doesn't mean laziness. It means falling asleep to oneself so that they don't have to make decisions and be an individual. So if they turn off their own attention towards themselves, they don't need to make decisions. They don't need to think hard about who they are as an individual. That takes too much work. And so an easy way of avoiding that is actually merging with other people or routines sometimes. Because if everything is set either as a schedule or by other people, then they just need to go with the flow and kind of coast along with it and they could just live more carefree.

And so often Nines look very soft, very gentle, kind of the opposite of Eights, but what they don't know is that they actually have more power and energy than Eights do. If only they would wake up. If only they would find out who they really are, what they really want. Nines, they're a force to be reckoned with. You cannot stop them once they wake up. It's just they prefer to be sleep. So yeah, all the nine types have themes that we all resonate with in some shape or form. Like at some point we've all felt vengeance. At some point we've all felt like the desire to be liked, but our type is where we've gotten stuck.

What we've identified ourselves with. And therefore, what celebrating our type is actually the opposite of what needs to happen. Otherwise, we're celebrating the trap we've put ourselves into. True freedom comes from recognizing the trap that we're in and finding the key to come out and live. Access the other parts of life that we already have ready access to.

Melissa Smith: Yeah, that makes sense. If we are wanting better relationships or that dream project, mission, career, and we're running into all these obstacles and things that we're sabotaging doing ourselves. I think that really shows us where, like for me, seeing my Four tendencies really help to see the way I hold myself back from those one or the ways I show up in relationships.

All right. Well, let's see. I have so many more questions, but I know we're basically out of time. I will end with… one of your mottos and you mentioned it too, at the beginning is growing beyond your enneagram type so that you live in love from your flow state. How did that journey look for you, like learning about the enneagram and then growing beyond it?

My Enneagram Journey

Joanne Kim: I mean, once I found out that I was creating my own suffering, it's like, I can continue living that way, but it wouldn't do me any good. It wouldn't do anyone else any good. And it's more suspending my type's belief system. It is like type four's main fear is the fear of goodness, especially my own goodness.

It's like, okay, I resonated with this whole thing. I recognize how I've painted myself into a corner. What if the things I believe in are actually only a piece of the bigger picture? What if I don't have all the information? What if instead of thinking that I'm always without something essential, what if it's actually available to me?

And that opened up the door for possibilities and opportunities kind of in a Seven-ish way, but less out of a sense of the need to be whole, but out of the out of the consideration that I might already be whole. The idea of a flow state versus a stress state is a flow state is something you engage in, you get super absorbent because the experience is itself its own reward. If great things happen at the end, that's bonus, but not the point. And the flow state is constantly generating more and more energy. And there's surplus to even be generous for other people, whereas a stress state is I have to do this or else something bad is going to happen or something good is not going to happen.

So it's like living with a guillotine or a carrot hanging out over our heads, right? That wears us down. It creates so much strife, so much stress for ourselves and other people. And this is usually where our Enneagram types live. So if we switch into flow state, it's like, okay, let me suspend what my type says I am and let me see what happens if I try something else.

Yeah. And that's kind of where my life kind of started changing in my personal life, my relationships, my businesses. And I practice just letting the data speak for itself instead of living from my interpretation of what the data means. So it's been a wild experience and I'm super thankful for the Enneagram because I don't think there's been any other resource that's brought as much healing for me.

Melissa Smith: Yeah. So that's awesome. I love that. Well, it'd be great to share a little bit, just an introduction. I know we can't go into this, but You have a freebie guide and you talk a lot about emotions as well to the Enneagram. So can you just give us a little bit of a introduction on how you do this work, how you integrate the Enneagram and emotion work and what that kind of looks like. So listeners can understand like what else they can get from the Enneagram.

Joanne Kim: Yeah. And so I have my hat as a therapist, Enneagram therapist, and my hat as a feelings coach. I like calling myself a feelings translator because in the same way we actually resonate with all nine Enneagram types, we also resonate with all the full range of emotions.

It's just that based on our type, partially, we tend to pick and choose certain emotions as good and think the rest of them as bad. And so we become very lopsided in that we overdo these supposedly good emotions and we underdo what's supposedly bad emotions. So that only reinforces our own patterns which keep us stuck and the way out of it basically one of the ways to grow beyond our type structure is to recognize what our own emotional habits are.

Finding out which feelings we've labeled as good and which is bad and dialing back what have been labeled as good. Because we're overdoing them and then summoning forth what we've underly practiced so that we can be more versatile, we could be more well rounded. So instead of feeling something because that's just what we feel, or that's what we've been trained to feel, it's like, let our emotions tell us what's actually happening in the situation and what we're needing.

And so I do think that our emotional space is one of the best sources of information, that if we shut that down, or if we only pick and choose certain data points, we end up coming up with a very distorted picture of ourselves, of other people, and of life. So I do have the freebie guide, the Emotional Habits of Enneagram types and that is with an extra emphasis on the Enneagram.

But aside from that, I also do my work as feelings translator in exploring each emotion because each emotion has a specific message about what our inherent and legitimate needs are. So whichever route you do exploration in, eventually all truth kind of ends up in the same place anyway. So it's more of, uh, what, what seems more immediately useful for now, and then you'll eventually tap into the other ones.

Melissa Smith: What are some of the tools, resources, routines, some of the things that you personally like to use to stay high vibe?

Next Steps + Resources

Joanne Kim: Yoga has been a fantastic option. As a Four, I've mostly been disconnected from my body my whole life and kind of poo pooed out like anything related to movement, exercise and things like that. So that I could resume my fetal position, navel gazing. But I started doing yoga a year ago and holy crap, it's been so good for me in staying very present and connected with my body and actually finding out what my body is capable of. And so that's been super helpful. I do that twice a week. I would do it more if I had the schedule for it, but, that's been fantastic. And also a very very good practice for focusing on the good that's available to me.

Melissa Smith: Is there a specific type of yoga that you like?

Joanne Kim: Yin yoga. Because I'm very productive and active in my typical week. And so yin yoga is super chill. Half the time it's like laying on the floor doing nothing. It's a very good remedy for me because I live my whole life, believing that I have to make things happen or else that's the stress state. And yin yoga it's like, what else is there for me to do except to just stay here and take in things from outside of myself.

Melissa Smith: Yeah, I think that's helpful too, because sometimes we can be really disconnected from our body kind of helping slow down. All the thoughts and just be present and just out. Yeah. Awesome. Love that recommendation. All right. So how can listeners work with you? Where do you want to send them to follow you and just kind of what you have going on right now?

Joanne Kim: Yeah. If you want to learn more about the Enneagram, you can follow me on Instagram at @olivemecounseling or my website olivemecounseling.com. That's where you can find the Emotional Habits of Each Enneagram Type Guide.

If you want to learn more about emotions, then I have my Instagram @intelligentemotions or intelligentemotions.com. And there you can find another freebie guide called the Big Feelers First Aid Kit. So basically when feelings show up at the wrong place, wrong time, in wrong ways, that's a good guide to pick up just so that you can take care of yourself.

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