I was invited onto The Empowered Sensitive & Creative Podcast with Rim to discuss using the Enneagram to decode instincts and emotional patterns. Rim is an artist, a certified life coach, and an NLP practitioner. Here is the transcript of our conversation or give the podcast episode a listen below!

Rim: Joanne Kim, LMFT, is an Enneagram and Brainspotting Therapist in the Silicon Valley. She helps people transform their biggest feelings into their greatest superpower. She does this in three ways. The Enneagram helps people discover and grow beyond their emotional reactive patterns. Brainspotting helps people massage out the painful emotional knots in their nervous system.

Intelligent Emotions is an online program that helps people build their dream life and relationships through the power of their own emotions. A big feeler, an Enneagram Type 4, and a fellow HSP, Joanne has come a long way in being in harmony with her feelings and spends her free time hammocking, cocktailing, or soap carving.

Hi Joanne, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy for you to be here today.

Joanne: Thanks. It's good to be here.

Rim: Can you start by telling me a bit about yourself? Where are you from? Where did you grow up? Where are you based right now?

Yeah, I am a therapist and feelings translator down in the Silicon Valley in San Jose, California, and, mostly work with a lot of sensitive and empathic creative types to basically put their life on hold in trying to take care of other people or trying really hard to not be criticized, not be judged.

Joanne: Working around other people. And so my work has been to help people draw out their true selves and live their best life. So it's been really good, really fun. And yeah, I'd love to share a little bit more about how I do that today.

Rim: Yeah. Wow. Amazing. I really like, really like what you do and we need more people like you.

Joanne: There's a lot of room for more people to come on board because being in the Silicon Valley, we have a lot of emphasis on like engineering types and people who can like, chug in a lot of work without complaining. There's a lot of politicking that happens in a lot of these industry companies, but that's kind of where a lot of the sensitive types tend to struggle because being very ethical, they don't really like throwing people under the bus or like being deceptive and things like that.

And so it's been pretty hard. So if you can send more people over this way, then that would be great.

Rim: Yeah, definitely. And it's not only in the Silicon Valley, I think. I guess over there, it's like concentrated. I think everywhere where you have a lot of competition, I say competition like this, because, you know, could be perception, but is it actually the truth?

But anyway even in the creative industries artistic world, it can be quite tough. And for sensitive people, it's, yeah. I mean, I think there are a lot of sensitives who really are really great at engineering, at arts, at creativity, but at the same time, it can be so much, so much to handle.

Joanne: I mean, I imagine that success is itself a double edged sword, because once people actually create something fantastic, it's like, well, now the bar's higher, so I have to, like, beat the old thing.

Otherwise, like, I might be irrelevant, I might be replaceable, and there's a lot of that kind of anxiety and fear, so. So much stress that happens. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Rim: Somehow stress was and still is something that when I grew up, at least I think now it's changing, but I remember when I was younger, being stressed seemed like a good thing. You know, like it's bad that you're actually doing something in your life with your life.

People were like, Oh, I'm stressed. I'm stressed. I'm stressed. And then if you, if you would come along and say, well, okay, actually. People around you would feel like, what's wrong with you? Yeah, maybe you're not ambitious enough.

Joanne: It's like a badge of honor by itself. And so like definitely get a lot of that It's as if the people aren't like hustling all the time. That they're being lazy like it's a character flaw instead of being like I did my work during work hours and now it's not work hours. And so I'm gonna go hang out with my family or go up for a walk or do something light and easy. Like there's a lot of emphasis on pushing and enduring and struggling really. Yeah, yeah I mean the pressures are already strong from the outside if they're also strong from the inside then it's like the body doesn't ever get a break. Until it crashes and you just can't take it anymore.

Rim: Yeah, that's true. That's interesting. As you were saying this, I got a vision from when I was an art student, we were, we were shown a video about Francis Bacon, who is an artist from the 20th century, and it was a video about explaining his process. It's really marked me. So the video is, there's a guy sitting in an armchair, and we just see him, like, I think from the chest up, facing us.

And we see he's receiving punch in the face. So he's receiving a punch, then another punch, then another punch, then another punch, and you know, at the beginning, he's handling quite well, and then after a while, it's really hard. So it's really weird, but anyway, then you can see his face getting disfigured. Disfigured and then blood pouring out and then at the end is completely destroyed. And then I don't remember the rest of the video, but I remember that scene and the artist said that that's his vision of what he's trying to portray in his art. His art is quite tortured and quite heavy in that sense.

And yeah, what you were saying, what you were talking about external pressure and internal pressure. It made me think of that as an image.

Joanne: Mm hmm. And if you imagine, like, a lot of empathic types, like, how we tend to navigate with bullies, not quite well. And so it's just like taking it and taking it and taking it until, like, one day we just, our resentment just builds up so much that we kind of flip our lid and just everything comes out.

Rim: Yeah, definitely. Exactly.

Joanne: A lot of toxic dynamics. Like, people are like, Why are you so dramatic? Why are you so emotional? When it's really that there's been a build up of all this stress that had to go somewhere in the first place.

Rim: And then at the end, some sensitive types and empath types end up believing this bullying is true. It's how things should be. So they also end up bullying themselves internally.

Tell me, before we dive deeper into what you do and how you help sensitive souls to handle the emotions better and feel better and thrive, how did you get into this work?

Joanne: I think it's a not uncommon thing for healing types to come into this work because they've had to do their own work. And I definitely wasn't planning on being a therapist or being entrepreneurial. In hindsight when I look back I recognize that there's been kind of a common theme throughout the different things that I've done. Because if you kind of look at my resume, there's no like one thing that dominates everything I'm kind of like bouncing around and it's easy to assume that there's no connection in between any of those notes. But I think each endeavor or each role I've taken on basically was the latest creative option for me to paint out like my dream. Which is to be a dream activator. I love sitting with people getting to know them getting to know their stories and then being able to draw that out to their best potential but there is no like official job title dream activator.

And so I had to kind of figure a lot of things out on my own. And after my college years, I had a lot of personal struggles growing up as like a first born daughter of a Korean American or Korean immigrant family, and I kind of moved around a lot and had a lot of trouble like joining new communities, making friends and things like that.

I had a lot of feelings built up. Because the messages that I got in those various contexts was like you shouldn't have feelings just tough it out, It's not a big deal like, Do your work. And so that kind of built up until after college and a couple of like typical events happened. But for me, it was like a switch flipped on and then like all these feelings just came out And because I didn't know what was happening and because my environment wasn't particularly friendly towards feelings that was when I sought my own therapy space as a client. And I was in there for a good number of years, did a lot of work and a lot of things settled down enough where I was like, okay, like, so I should probably figure out what to do next. Because I'm doing okay now, I don't have any crises, but, you know, I'm not really sure what to do next. And I was sitting in the middle of my therapy session talking to my therapist and thought occurred to me like Why don't I do this?

Because I love talking to people one on one. I love getting to know stories. In the ways that i've processed my own therapy stuff like I would share it with other people and other people are like wait That's what you're learning. Like, that's like, I get that too, or I resonate with that too. And I think there's something along the lines of like teaching, coaching, joining, empowering other people that got me down the path of seeking to become a therapist myself.

Fast forward, several years, I've been loving therapy, loving being in private practice. And being able to help people in ways that intuitively makes sense. At least it fits me and it seems like it fits a lot of people that I work with. And now i'm at the point where it's like, you know, I think therapy provided the best canvas for me to do my latest work. But in actuality like I think there's more to it.

I think I have a natural Innovative bent to me where I probably won't settle with just one thing. I will probably regularly be in a space of inventing myself over and over and over. So I've landed right now in the space of being very entrepreneurial. And so five years from now, like who knows what I'll be doing.

But I do enjoy every iteration of what I've done over the years. And at the current moment, it's operating as an Enneagram therapist. Helping people find their reactive patterns where they get stuck. And also as a feelings translator, being able to help people tap into their own emotional space to actually use that as their greatest asset instead of their biggest liability, as often people think they are.

So that is the, that was the current checkpoint.

Rim: So I wanted to say, I really resonate with what you say. I feel like you, like, I can't imagine be doing always exactly the same thing. And if you look at my resume, same, you would see different things. And if you don't pay attention, you might think, Whoa, this person is, has been all over the place. But then when you, when you think about it, It's all tying in.

It's like different pieces of the puzzles. And bit by bit it's creating something that makes sense. And I've noticed the same with a lot of other highly sensitive people. Have you as well? Have you noticed it's quite a common theme amongst us?

Joanne: I think so. I think especially for people who are highly sensitive and also gifted in that, like, There's a lot of internal processing that we do to begin with. Just by virtue of being a Highly Sensitive Person and looking for things of greater depth, greater meaning, instead of something that's more surface level that I mean, no shade to like jobs and careers that are about making money because money is super important. But I think for a lot of sensitive types, they can't last that long working in spaces where there's only the immediate reward there. I think there needs to be challenge, there needs to be stimulation, there needs to be like thinking outside the box, being able to make work more personal, like an expression of oneself. And so, I think it's more likely that sensitive types are likely to get bored, and burnt out.

And not because they're not capable of doing the task, it's just I think we need something very specific. Something inspirational or motivating for us to keep going.

Rim: Yes, yes, we need this deeper meaning. And if we are searching for this deeper meaning, it would make sense because then we're uncovering layers.

And as we've been to the next, like the next level of discoveries or expression, then there's another layer. and so on and so on. So we kind of dig deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper. So then things will shift. But then I suspect like for you, you say maybe in a few years, who knows, you might it might evolve, but I imagine there will still be this thread. That is, I think you like, I call this the, our essence . And then that would be to still making, makes sense.

Joanne: Yeah. Like the core part of me will probably remain the same. And the nice thing is the skills that I accumulated along the way are very transferable. So I might just be in a different industry altogether. And I used to be, I used to be very hard on myself about that.

It's like, why can't I just like, stick with one thing? Now I've learned that well, maybe I don't have to. Maybe I can maintain like, the consistent thread of who I am, but find all these different ways to play that out. So, yeah. The journey itself has been pretty fun, and because there's no predefined path, it's been a great experience for me to even use my own professional trajectory as a way of getting to know myself, find out places where I get stuck, I get triggered.

Because, like, there's so many moments where I was so stressed out and procrastination and perfectionism and all that stuff kicked in when I was like writing my website pages. And I don't think that's as much the case if I were to be working in a career where I just plug and chug numbers and there's not a whole lot of room for me to pay attention to my internals, get to know my emotions.

Figure out what what's behind my reactivity and things like that. So It's been a personally and very professionally rewarding process to be able to give myself permission to not always have to walk down a predefined path by other people. More so to really honor my own uniqueness and my own inclinations rather than judging myself. Just see what happens if I give myself permission to be in my flow state, be in my sweet spot and see where that goes.

Rim: I love that. Yeah. That's creative. You get to choose, you get to recreate again and again. And we live at times where it's becoming easier to do that and less, you know, shine upon. But that being said, I think many people are scared of this reinvention and they're like, Oh, I have to, as you say, I have to pick something or what would, what will happen?

Because you know, the unknown can be quite scary. How, how do you handle that, like releasing the anxiety and because in order to be in the flow, you need to kind of not be anxious.

Creativity and The Enneagram Instincts: Self-Preservation, Social, Sexual

Joanne: So I borrowed a lot from the Enneagram, which is the main framework that I use. And oftentimes when I like show up on these talks, as I described, like the nine types of the Enneagram and how there are nine different ways of seeing and responding to life.

But there's kind of another dimension to the Enneagram where it's about the three instincts. The three instincts basically being three modes that are built into our automatic lizard brain. Like, these are so quick, they're so reflexive that they're happening before we even know it. And the three different instincts are called Self-Preservation instinct, the Social instinct, and sometimes it's called the Sexual instinct or the intimate 1:1 instinct.

But I happen to be someone who is very Self-Preservation instinct dominant. In short, what that means is that the way that I orient myself in the world is through planning, preparing, anticipating, scheduling. I prefer for things to be very orderly, very structured and controlled and predictable as an attempt to try to eliminate feeling out of control.

Now, most people like, they don't quite like feeling out of control to begin with, but Self-Preservation types, like that's like one of the biggest triggers. I need to make sure that things are according to plan. I need to make sure to eliminate any variables. And even when good things, if they happen without me having like planned for it, it can stress me out because I don't know what to do next.

And so for me, like that's been a huge struggle in releasing control and allowing myself to just go along with things. I think what really helped was me recognizing that I was creating my own trap. If it wasn't so much plans going sideways that was the issue. It was that I had so many plans to begin with and I set myself up to have a very small window of success. Because I create all these conditions that need to be 100 perfect So once I recognized that, it was just like, wait, if I'm creating my own stress by coming up with all these expectations of how things should be, then what would happen if I tried something with half as many expectations?

What would that be like? And I tried those experiences over and over again to realize that the end result was actually a lot better than me meticulously planning for everything. Because sometimes I would come up with inspirations that I that didn't come up when I was in the planning phase they would just come in the moment like I think in a lot of creative spaces you hear about having like drops of inspiration that kind of come out of nowhere when you least expect it. And I think allowing for things to come about organically really helped for me to live into that space of seeing what's on the other side after I've released the grip, at least a little bit. And I was getting rewarded for it over and over again, what I thought would be for my benefit in planning everything out was actually to my detriment.

And what I thought was the worst thing, which is the release control actually turned out to be for my greatest good. So that really helped me to soften my dominant self preservation instinct. It's like, I don't need to be in that hyper planning mode all the time at least. I could afford to soften my grip, and let's see how things turn out.

Also, that part of the Enneagram doesn't get talked about as much.

Rim: That's so interesting. It's interesting because it shows how imagination can be such a great thing. But also it can go against us, we can turn it against us because like what you described seems to me, it's kind of imagination, imagining all the things that can go bad or this need, this need to imagine how things would be, and sometimes, often our imagination can be very creative and create the results, some results we want, but we don't know everything.

Joanne: Yeah, that's a huge thing.

Rim: Things can be so much better than what we can imagine.

Joanne: Mm hmm. I think combination of also being a highly sensitive type, it's like getting so bombarded with change and all the stimulation that comes with it. It's feels so disruptive internally. Even in the normal day to day life, like there's like in the other room, like someone could be, you know, dropping their phone and then have like a sudden startling noise.

And then I'm in the middle of something and it's completely like, you know, focused. And it's especially for sensitive types where there is that maybe over readiness to take in new information. I think, especially those who are also self preservation dominant, they tend to want to overcompensate by making everything consistent, planning every single detail out, as a way to like control one's external environment to control one's internal environment. But again, it's to our detriment when we do it too much.

Rim: Definitely. So do you think that , the person who wants to do something, but then think that they don't know enough or they are not ready, not yet, they still need to learn more or practice more? They would be the self preservation type, so they would use knowledge as a security blanket.

Joanne: Yeah, knowledge is a huge one. Competency. Competency is a big, big trigger button, like being extra embarrassed when finding out that something happened outside of your awareness or being revealed that you actually don't know all the information especially if it's in front of other people but even without other people. Like recognizing oh, like I don't know how to do this I feel so frustrated and the more frustrated we get the more we zero in on the thing that we're frustrated about and then it just becomes like this extra aggravating situation. A lot of that has to do with the self preservation instinct being in the top two. It doesn't quite have to be the dominant but there are these three instincts and we have all three.

It's just one of them we tend to forget and it's shoved in the closet. One we think is the solution for everything. It's like when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail kind of situation where it's confirmation bias. And in recognizing that the hammer itself is causing problems at this point. It's good to, to realize like, Oh, like are there. There might be some other options. There might be some other ways for me to navigate through this. And so the Social and the Sexual instincts for me were really important for me to kind of reintegrate or reconnect with and balance myself out so that when I come across a new situation, how I respond depends on what the situation needs instead of what I prefer or what I'm used to.

So, that's been, that's been really good for me to learn about that myself and also to be able to share that with other people.

Rim: Yes. Sounds really interesting. Would you mind to talk briefly about the other two instincts?

Joanne: Yeah, so the Social instinct, because all these are survival instincts, self preservation instinct says I need to control factors for me to feel safe and secure.

The Social instinct basically says I need to make sure that my position in a group, a collective, is secure for me to be okay. So the social instinct emphasizes themes like belonging, status, position, role, power, like who's in, who's outside of a group, who's at the top, who's at the bottom, who is recognized by others, who's kind of more on the outskirts.

A lot of these themes that we might see more in like more organizational or political spaces, those who are Social instinct dominant, that's their main way of seeing life. It's like who's better or worse. It's always like relative to other people. Whereas a self preservation instinct, it kind of can operate on its own, like whether other people around is less central.

But the Social instinct is like, am I seen, am I recognized for what I do, or am I fulfilling my function in a community? Am I being a responsible cog in the bit, in the greater machine? So often those who are Social dominant tend to focus on what does the group want or what does the group need and how can I orient myself with respect to the collective.

And then the Sexual instinct, which is also a relationship based instinct, is less about the group and it's less about the person's own individual well being, but it's more about intensity and significance to a chosen person. So it's called the Sexual instinct and that kind of gets people confused.

It's not all about sex. It can include sex, but it's really being able to orient oneself with respect to those special chosen people. This person when they're sitting in front of even a stranger at Starbucks. They can be really attuned to that person on a very one on one, energetically connected basis.

They're like very involved, they're very present, they're spontaneous, they go with the flow. I like calling them the the vivacious instinct. Where it's about, Leading life with zest, with a lot of vitality, whereas a self preservation instinct tends to be more guarded and restrictive. Yeah. More conservative, more constricted, more risk avoiding. The Sexual instinct is more risk taking, more adventurous. And so it's the fun instinct in a lot of cases.

Rim: But what's the flip side of it?

Joanne: The flip side of it is that it can be very impulsive and sometimes aggressive. It has the more competitive bent in being the best person or anything else, like the biggest, the brightest, the prettiest, the richest.

It's always like competing against other people and has to take the one special spot at the top or the one special one special spot in another chosen person's life, like being the closest person. So again, we have all three instincts, right? And all three instincts come in handy, but there's a huge issue when we think only one of these matter and then one of these actually causes problems.

And so we become very out of balance. So when you combine our dominant instinct, one of the three, with the nine Enneagram types, which are about different motivations, the why we do what we do, the instincts are about how we do the why what we do. If you combine them together, we get 27 subtypes, which accounts for a lot of diversity in how our human temperaments are.

But in current Enneagram literature, you'll hear a lot about the nine types. You won't hear a lot about the instincts and you probably won't hear as much about the subtypes. But I think, honestly, the instincts, because they're wired into our lizard brain, if you can balance out what's happening on an instinct level, even if you don't know your Enneagram type, that itself can do a lot in helping you unlock your own potential. Because you find out how you're getting yourself into trouble.

And then you also recognize what skills that you're not used to, that can really come in handy.

Rim: Someone with the same Enneagram. So just like, for example, we have the same Enneagram Four, but then if we have a dominant instinct, which is different, then our experience of Enneagram Four could be totally different.

Joanne: Wildly different, especially for Four and Sixes. Because the motivation, especially for Four, is around suffering and meaning.

Like how can I be my most authentic self? If you combine that engine with a Sexual instinct that's like, it's all about vitality and zest for life and intensity and things like that. You're going to get a type of Four who's very wild in their feelings and they're very dynamic, very charismatic. But they often start problems, sorry, start projects, but never finish because they're constantly going from one thing to the one intense thing. One fun thing to the next. Right? And so they might get frustrated. Right? And they're often the ones that direct their negative emotions to other people. So they're known as the angry fours. Whereas the self preservation four, which is my type, being more guarded. I actually don't let other people know how I'm feeling. So even though i'm feeling a lot of things on the inside, I usually keep it to myself So on the outside, I might look like a very different type while on the inside. I'm very much a four

Rim: Oh, wow.

Joanne: So the motivations are pretty similar in terms of the central themes by virtue of being type four but how our patterns show up? Can vary wildly, based on what dominant instincts we have.

Rim: Okay, that's interesting. Are there, like, did you notice, or do we know if one instinct or two instincts are more predominant amongst HSPs or not?

Joanne: I think you can run the full gamut, but especially as Highly Sensitive Person trait, our Social context really matters. Like, I often talk about what it's like being a Highly Sensitive Person in the United States, where the main themes are being loud, aggressive, the best, like, being top dog, right?

They don't quite align with that. The natural tendencies of a Highly Sensitive Person. And then in a place like Japan where a lot of the values are around modesty, intentionality, dedication, conscientiousness. Those really align with the general agency trait So the same person would have very different experiences depending on which country they're in. And I think in a lot of ways it's the same with the instincts. So if someone, if a Highly Sensitive Person happens to be in an environment like Brazil where there's a lot of emphasis on vitality and fun, those who are a Sexual instinct will probably align better than those with a self preservation instinct who is more guarded.

Whereas let's say in a lot of Latin American countries, I think that are probably heavily Social instinct dominant where it's about the family. It's about the collective, the neighbors the churches. And so it's less so about standing out as an individual and more about being a member in a greater community. And so if someone is a dominant Sexual instinct who is about making themselves stand out. Well, they're gonna clash against their communities. Self preservation dominant then they're gonna be seen as more selfish or more guarded and reserved and they're actually expected to be. So different countries have preferred instincts as well.

Rim: Yes, totally. Yes. You know, I read a lot about things written from people living in the US and some I resonate with and some I'm like, no. It feels really hard. I feel, oh my God, like it must be so hard to live there as an HSP. But I, like the idea of, you know, working super hard and this hustle culture. But now I feel like, you know, France is quite known for not being, for taking things easy and all of that.

But actually, I think it has changed and it's catching up, at least in big cities, like in Paris. For example, where people are working. Like, you know, there's this thing of, ha, ha, ha, I am super busy. I work so hard and it's becoming also part of the values. And then something else I want to, I want to say is I lived in Asia.

I lived in China for many years and it's different from Japan, but there are some common things. So there is this emphasis and value of the family. And, you know, not, and also not showing too much. Not showing what you're feeling, like keeping it for you and valuing the social cohesion. So that's one aspect, but then there is at least in Shanghai, which is a huge, huge growing city.

And then it's like the other, then I think it's like in the US or in other western countries where it's all about individual role and working a lot and proving things and showing what, you know, and it's kind of it's kind of conflicting.

Joanne: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And so like having a lot of awareness of our own tendencies is important. But especially for sensitive types, we need to consider the social context that we're in because a lot of the stress, a lot of the feelings we might have, actually they're other people's stuff. Or they're the byproduct of the contrast between our patterns and the general society's values. So I think that a lot of sensitive types tend to be more prone to anxiety, guilt, and shame. Because, not because there's something wrong with them per se, but they happen to have taken on all the stress that comes from not quite, not gelling with the main dominant environment that they're in.

And so it's really important for especially like empathic folks to tap into the main emotion that helps to buffer and protect us, which is anger. But if anger is labeled as like the bad, scary, destructive emotion, then we're locking up the very skill and resource we need to actually take good care of us.

Rim: And now that leads me to my big question, which is how can Enneagrams learning and knowing about our Enneagrams can help us with that? But first, because we've been talking about Enneagram, Enneagram, Enneagram, and I imagine some of us don't really know. Sorry, my dog. I have a new dog.

Joanne: Ah, that was adorable.

Rim: Yes, what did I want to say? What is the Enneagram? I think some people, like many of us, may have heard about it, but without really knowing what it is. Can you briefly explain what is the Enneagram?

Joanne: Yeah, the Enneagram is a personality framework for describing nine universal themes, for human motivations. Through which we experience, interpret, and react to the world. We have all nine themes that are readily available, but for various reasons, because especially when we were kids, life was super overwhelming and we can't handle complex information, we defaulted to one of the nine. And so that one Enneagram type, out of all nine, helps simplify the way that we process and react to information.

By focusing in on some central themes. Like the theme of perfection, or being lovable, or being one's individual unique self, or being safe and secure. There are these different ways that when we integrate all nine, we can show up in life and again, respond to the situation for what the situation needs, not according to what we're used to.

But often we've identified with one of those themes to the point where we think we're right and everyone else is wrong. So I like using the different movies to describe how the Enneagram works and one of them is The Matrix. It's like finding out, waking up one day and finding out that the life that you've been living is actually made up.

It's fictional. And that fictional life that we've been living is basically us living life through our specific Enneagram lens. There's actually more to life, there's a whole different world out there, but when we only see what we want to see, we're basically reinforcing our trap, our cage that we're stuck in.

And so, I don't know if everyone in this audience has watched The Matrix, but a little bit of spoiler alert, there's a character in there who knows that everyone's been living in this fantasy world. and knows while he's like eating his steak, says, I know the steak is fake. I know this isn't real, but I would rather eat the steak than basically like live life for what it is.

And so there's some people who actually choose to be in denial about how the world actually is so that they can kind of maintain their own perspective on life. So the Enneagram type tells us about the main defense mechanisms. The main view by which we understand life that used to be useful when we were growing up But at a certain point it stops being useful in the same way and actually starts creating problems.

I'm of the opinion that we're born with it not as like a genetic thing. But that when we're born, we have a predisposition to be drawn to one of the nine types. It's very simple it's very like I know having talked to some individuals where like their earliest memories are like when they're like three or so years old and no one's taught them about the Enneagram obviously. But there are certain themes that are present and are very loud, even from a very young age.

So because of that, I kinda lean in the direction where people are born with a predisposition towards a certain type. And life experiences reinforce that over and over again, kind of justifying that they need it. But it's confirmation bias. Like, if you're looking for signs that your friends are about to betray you, you'll probably find evidence, quote unquote, right?

Instead of it actually being true. And so it simplifies the way that we process things. It creates a lot of problems later.

Rim: So do you think we can, we need to, it's useful for us to learn about all of the types, not only the one we must identify with, so that we can integrate all of them?

Eventually, though. There are some types of the nine that tend to focus on other people. And not on oneself and so for starters for people who are very new to the Enneagram journey I would highly recommend that once they find their type that they spend the most time there. Eventually, it would be helpful to learn about the other types and there's a sequence of the other types that are important to recognize Because each of the nine types have their corresponding growth path. And so, the each of the nine types is connected to four other types.

So any of the four other types would come in handy to provide an additional option than just their own type. The remaining four, if you can get around to it, it's good to learn it. Or sometimes we'll have to learn it because those are the types of our closest people. And we are dealing, we're in their slash zone and they're in our slash zone, so it comes in handy for us to recognize what their go to patterns are so that we don't interpret them according to what makes sense to us, so we get to know them according to what's going on for them.

Rim: Alright. But yeah, I feel like, as you say, it's important to focus on your type first. Okay. Yeah, especially for those who tend to care more about those around them. Did you think about Enneagram 2?

Joanne: Enneagram 2, 9s, 3s, Self preservation 4s. There's a good number of types and subtypes. Where they focus on other people as a way of not doing their inner work and not processing and dealing with their feelings.

Rim: It's not me, it's them?

Joanne: Yeah, it's probably more stereotypical. Like, ones can do the same thing as well. It's just all of us have, all of us might do the same thing, but have very different reasons for why we do it. And unless we know those reasons, we can't untangle our own patterns. So. It's generally good practice.

It helps us have like a focal point to really pay attention to the invisible mechanisms that are driving us. These are our blind spots. We don't actually know that they're happening because they're automated and anything automated works well, quote unquote. When it's operating smoothly behind the scenes without anyone knowing about it, but what happens if we're automated to something that keeps creating problems?

Well, it's in our best interest to really switch to manual and find out what's really going on, right, and make adjustments as needed. Now, I have a tendency, as I said before, being a Self-Preservation dominant Four, I have a tendency of thinking that things are not likely to work out easily for me.

They'll work out easily and well for other people, but it won't work out for me. So I need to really put my nose to the grind and work really hard and obsess over details so I can control the outcome. In actuality, the work that I do might already be fine and actually other people might be like, yeah, that's amazing But in my eyes, I think it's crap.

I might think that here's a flaw, there's a flaw. Like these are the ways that could be better or that you know, this is the way it's not enough. And I can kind of have a more negative event if I were to let my Enneagram type, dictate or define anything

Rim: Wow Perfectionism. And so once you're aware of this, okay, for example, in your case, so you know, now you know you're an Enneagram Four, you know, you have this self preservation instinct, and then you, you know, how it shows up and how it can sabotage your efforts. Yeah. Then once you know that, what do you do with that?

Joanne: The main thing is for you to not judge yourself, once you recognize your own patterns, because sometimes judging ourselves is what our autopilots do. Eventually, it's to soften our reactivity. In space lies our power to choose. Within that power to choose lies our growth and freedom.

There's a quote by Viktor Frankl, who is a psychologist and a Holocaust survivor, and he wrote this great book, which Called the Man's Search for Meaning. There's a fantastic quote in there that I think captures the main reason why self work is really important. The quote goes like this, "Between stimulus and response, there's a space. Within that space is our power to choose. And within that power to choose lies our growth and our freedom." The main meaning behind that quote is, between something happening and our reaction to it, there's a window. The smaller the window, the less freedom we have, the bigger the window, the more options we've got.

And so our work in paying attention to our own patterns is to try to increase that space between something happening and us reacting to it as much as possible. So that we're not living like robots. We're living like human beings who can actually choose into things. So that's why it's really important for us to recognize our own go to patterns.

The Enneagram helps us reveal the invisible patterns that maybe others can, other people can see in us, but we can't see in ourselves. We're blind to it.

Rim: So it's like a tool, like an ally that helps us to see things, witness things. Yeah. And then once we're there, so okay, self awareness, not judging. So it's like accepting that it's how it is right now. Yeah, I then would the Enneagram, like learning about the Enneagrams, would it give us the tools to do this shift, to do this change? Or it's more just to pinpoint and show us how it is and how it could be? Like showing us, like, is it, I don't know, like if I use the word vibration, like Enneagram, for example, is the authenticity, the search for like the meaning of self or something like that. I don't know if I'm using the right term.

Joanne: I would like to think of the Enneagram as a map. It's a map that tells us where we are because we've been lost this entire time. So we finally locate ourselves. I mean, what good is locating yourself if you don't know, if you're still lost, you know. We use that map to find out what other places we can go to and how to actually get there.

So I mentioned that each of the nine types are connected to four other types. These are the growth paths for each type so that we loosen the grip that our type has on us. These four other types are other options that are more readily available. And so in that sense, we find out our types to recognize how we're getting ourselves stuck.

Rim: So if I'm one Enneagram and I would benefit from learning from the other Enneagram, but that person is that Enneagram, then they might benefit from learning from my Enneagram?

Joanne: Absolutely. Yeah. And so that just to give you an example, okay. My husband and my best friend, the three of us are different Enneagram types, but the types they happen to be are in my growth path. I'm type 4, my husband's a type 1, my best friend's a type 2. It just so happens that type 1 and type 2 are in the type 4's growth path. And it just so happens that type 4, my own type, happen to be in their growth paths. Type 1 involves type 4 and type 7. Type 2 involves type 4 and type 8.

Whichever case. So in a sense, we trigger the crap out of each other, because we do what the other person doesn't do well in and vice versa. But the other way of seeing it is they do well what I need to also learn how to do for myself.

Rim: So they're like a mirror, they're showing you what's possible for you in a way.

Joanne: But then if I, if I don't do it for myself, I'm going to judge it. So for example stereotypical type ones are known to be very principled and very methodical, but when they do it to an extreme, they can be very rigid and inflexible. So fours, who tend to be very spontaneous and creative, can judge ones for being very boring because they're so methodical in the way that they do things.

And then ones can be like fours, you fours are so crazy and chaotic. Why can't you stick with the plan that you set? Right? And so they can be at huge conflict with each other if they think their own position is automatically correct. And the anyone else's position is wrong. But in actuality, ones need to learn how to connect with their own authenticity, and actually learn how to be more like Fours.

And Fours, who tend to be very wild and chaotic or spontaneous, need to actually learn how to bring in the commitment and the follow through of type ones. You know this as like a creative, right? Like we can come up with all these ideas and then start them, but like not really finish them. Because there's a slog that we go through, right? And so learning how to tap into our arrow type, our growth paths, patterns, can really help us get unstuck from the mud that is our type.

Rim: Okay, I see. And it helps us to understand the other better without judging them.

Joanne: Absolutely. Right.

Rim: Right. Accepting who they are. And putting things into perspective, really.

Joanne: Yeah, like, in the beginning with my best friend who is a type 2, type 2s are known to focus on other people and not focus on themselves.

I used to kind of roll my eyes at that. It's like, you know, why don't you know your own feelings? Why don't you know your own needs? But I recognize now that I'm overly focused on my feelings and I don't consider other people as much. So I've learned a lot from her in learning how to come outside myself.

And she probably has learned a lot about how to connect with herself and her authenticity by observing me and how I naturally operate. So we've built more greater compassion for ourselves and also for other people in their own individual paths because there's no one way of living life.

There are nine plus ways and the Enneagram just helps us show that there are other options available.

Rim: Yeah, totally. That's really inspiring. So, do you think, would you recommend to do this work? Learning about the Enneagrams as a group? You might reap more benefits if you do this with your partners, with your children, with your parents, with your friends, or it's still very, very useful if you do it as a one person. Not knowing, because of course you know, that the Enneagrams of your closed ones, but. I imagine many people don't know. You maybe cannot ask and you know.

Joanne: Yeah, because our autopilot types tend to work in very sneaky ways. Like I said, like, sometimes people come to therapy with their own idea of what needs to be done to find out that their actual growth path is the opposite of what they like. People come in wanting to work on their relationships where the main reason why they're having relationship issues is because they focus solely on other people and have gotten resentful in the process. And so even when it comes to our own personal work, if anything, the simpler way of expressing it is: consider the three instincts, Self-preservation, Social and Sexual instinct.

Where those are the three different approaches for how we are to live life. So there is value in doing some self study where you're not around other people, you're doing some more inner contemplative work, and that will be the self realization. And then there's value in learning things in a group context, because sometimes seeing another person who has the same type or has a very different type can give us a lot of rich information for us to then process.

And then, you know, our most intimate relationships. Those will be the people who trigger the most out of us right and where you know, we can't get away from just constantly putting on a certain mode or putting on a certain mask. Those are people who will challenge us because you know, they're impacted directly and so all three arenas of focusing like doing the work on an individual solo level, doing things in a group context, and doing things in intimate relations.

All of those are absolutely essential. But different countries might emphasize different ones, like in the United States, there's a higher emphasis on doing things by oneself, the hyper individualism, rugged individuality, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, not relying on other people.

People in the United States need to learn how to be more reliant on the group instead of constantly trying to stand out as an individual.

Rim: I get that, but in order to learn to rely on others. Do they not need to shift something internally at their own individual level first so that they can accept and, you know, like be ready for it.

Joanne: Yeah. So I would say it's not like a sequential thing. Like you need to do this first before you do that. It's like, if you can do them simultaneously, that's best. But if it's hard to do that, then you first start with softening your own dominant approach.

Rim: I'm wondering if I'm not Self-Preservation instinct because I'm approaching things in sequence. I like this idea of step one, step two. I know. Like, very often I say, actually, no, it doesn't make any sense. I mean, sometimes, but, you know, in the creative process and all of that, everything can be, there's no rule, but I know I find myself, I feel reassured when I know there's step one, step two, step three, like sequence.

Joanne: Yeah. That's, that sounds Self-Presie. So it might be in one of your top two instincts. It's not clear yet whether that's your dominant one, but I think of the second instinct as like a second language. Like you can speak it well enough, but it just might not be your preferred language.

Rim: Hmm. Yeah. I like this comparison.

Wow. So tell me so HSPs, they often struggle with overwhelm and self doubt in their creative pursuits. And, you know, we talked about this desire that very often we have as HSPs to do many things, to create different things and to move on from one, iteration to next one. And as you said, sometimes we don't finish things. As a result, we don't finish things.

How can Enneagram help us with that if we want to finish things? I don't believe we have to finish everything we do, by the way. Just a disclaimer here. Yeah. But if we, if we want, obviously we do want to see results from what we're doing and so, yes, what, how, what can you say about that?

Joanne: Yeah, so there are some common struggles that creatives have, like procrastination, perfectionism, imposter syndrome, etc. But the nine different types have different reasons for why that might be happening. Like, someone who's type nine. Might procrastinate because they don't know they have a hard time focusing on 1 thing.

They have a very diffused focus of attention. Whereas ones might procrastinate because they feel like in order for them to do the job well, they need needs to perfect. But in order for it to be perfect. 1 way of assuring that something is perfect is to not start. Because once they start, then it becomes something that could be possibly criticized.

And then. Sixes can struggle with procrastination because they're constantly questioning themselves. Like, is this the right decision? And things like that, you know? So there are lots of different motivations that show up in different patterns. We need to get to the motivation instead of focusing on the behavior because someone might, let's say brute force their way into finishing a project, but there's so much emotional turmoil that came out of it.

So it was fine for this project, but what happens if there's another one? they're going to go through the same thing over and over again. So knowing our own Enneagram patterns helps us to untangle the specific ways that we get stuck. So for the person who's Type 9, if they procrastinate because they have a hard time focusing on one thing, their work is to practice limiting options and narrowing it down to maybe two options, and then flip a coin if needed.

For ones, it's about recognizing that imperfection isn't, doesn't mean that the person's unworthy. Actually, a lot of things are imperfect, but still good. Like nature, there's no perfect tree, but it can still be good. And so that person can practice doing things even though things are imperfect.

Person who's type six is procrastinating. Instead of constantly questioning themselves, practicing reassuring themselves that based on their past experience, All the things that they've done, even though they've doubted themselves, actually turned out pretty good. So how about they give themselves more credit? So there's three examples of procrastinating, therefore three different ways of growing out of it.

And knowing our own types helps us to zoom in on the specific mechanisms that are going on.

Rim: Okay, that's a lot. I'm already seeing myself going down the rabbit hole of searching and analyzing every time. Yeah. Out of curiosity. Well. I will not go there. I want to ask you a personal question, actually, because you have three businesses, so you're actually creating a lot. And just before we started to record our conversation, you told me you started this year with this intention of slowing down and doing things slightly differently.

Can you talk a bit about About this, because you're an HSP, you're Enneagram 4, how, like, how did you go through that? Or how is it helping you to slow down?

Joanne: Well, a couple of different angles to it. One is instead of me trying to create the perfect business, where I was just stressing out trying to force one entity in like being everything, I realized that there are, it might just be simpler for me to create separate entities where each of them can have a life of its own.

Part of it was like to provide more options for me to express different parts of myself without constantly trying to pick one at the expense of something else. So that was one reason. The other reason was because there was a lot more to me than being a therapist and I needed a creative outlet for me to really tap into those other parts of me.

So my first business is as a therapist in private practice working with people one on one. And then my second business is I'm really good at finances and marketing and behind the scenes stuff that most therapists hate doing. And so I help other therapists or healers in the private practice setting build their own dream business. So that way I get to scratch that itch of like, you know, building new things, but I'm not the one actually building it. I get to help other people do that for themselves. And the third one is for my online school for feelings. Where there are lots of things that I would like to share with other people that I can't in a one on one context because I only have one body and there's like hundreds of other people.

And so part of it was out of a practical need and part of it was out of this desire for me to give myself permission to not make this one big giant perfect thing, but have lots of different ways of feeling different parts of myself. I think a parallel with relationships is that sometimes, especially for sensitive types, we tend to idealize a romantic partner thinking that we need to find that one person who can fill all my needs.

And then we get frustrated because that doesn't happen. But if we recognize that we can actually get a lot of our relational needs met in lots of different ways, then it releases the burden on that one person who gets chosen. So kind of a similar set up, but more on the business side. But part of that was me realizing that type fours fours tend to have a hard time settling. It's like there always needs to be this evolution towards something new. And I do recognize that is a huge driver for me and I found that that was leading me to burnout.

It's as if I need to constantly reinvent myself so that I would be okay. Nowadays, it's more of thinking I'm already okay as I am and I can create but I'm not creating so that I can be okay. I'm creating because I am okay. So it's kind of swapping the personal worth, like how that's been attached.

Rim: That's a big shift. It's just the change of words but it's a huge, like an edge.

Joanne: It's completely flipping it upside down. Yeah. Yeah, because the Four tends to do things to fill this big hole in themselves, but that was that's an assumption. It's like what if i'm actually already worthy, what if i'm already enough? And so instead of making my creations yet another project to judge myself over. What if I create because I kind of want to have fun? As a young child would like when they're playing with things, it's like, yeah, that's what kids do. Like, it's a very natural, normal, good thing instead of constantly like, checking to see whether they're doing their homework or whether they're doing it perfectly, you know.

Rim: When you do the comparison with the child, it seems quite silly to expect the child to have just one passion, one activity, one hobby. It doesn't make any sense. So why do we expect this of adults? Somehow?

Joanne: I mean, I think there's an expectation that we should just grow out of things and that life is very linear. But one of the other things I've learned through the Enneagram is that Fours tend to live life as if they're constantly teenagers, angsty teenagers who are constantly feeling things and struggling and questioning their identity and things like that, being embarrassed and ashamed. And I like completely skipped over like a typical childhood experience because I was constantly focusing on what could have been.

And so now I'm catching up with the childlike part of me and in recognizing that maybe we're just supposed to have different modes at different times. Instead of growing out of something permanently and never going back. So being playful is one of the reasons why I'm wanting to create more space within my week and to slow down.

So actually I've been spending a lot of time this past month working on jigsaw puzzles. I've dialed back from doing a lot of work in the business and spent more time watching stand up comedy and working on different Lego pieces and it's been really nourishing for me just as much as the work that I do is also nourishing.

Rim: I love jigsaw puzzles and I love stand up comedies and I think it's, it should be part of work. I mean, you know what I mean? I think using your brain on this kind of modalities. is actually very helpful. It's great brain gymnastics.

Joanne: Yeah. But I think a part of me, the reason why I shifted to puzzles is because I didn't create it. I am consuming someone else's creative work. And I think there's something very relieving about that. It's like, I'm not an active participant here. I'm very passive. All I do is I spill the puzzle pieces onto the table and I assemble. And put things together like I don't have to come up with my own expression things and that's actually a very good balancing experience for me. Because the most I mean the majority of my work week I'm constantly making something new. Creating new Instagram posts, creating new blogs, and creating new podcasts. And there's always like something new that I'm generating and it's a muscle that when it's overused that can lead to injury So wanting to kind of balance that out.

Rim: I agree. I agree. What does it mean being an empowered, sensitive, and creative person for you?

Joanne: To be very much in tune with who we are, our essence as you described it. Finding our true selves that are, that's buried beneath our ego and our defense mechanisms. That we come back to being our young, innocent, childlike selves. A lot of that comes through play. being able to give ourselves permission to enjoy things because that's what we enjoy.

Rim: Yes. Yes. Yes to that. That's so true. And now to wrap up, tell me, how can people learn more about you and how can they work with you?

Joanne: Two different options. I think in this podcast episode, we talked about the Enneagram and talked a little bit about different emotions. And so I am an Enneagram therapist and I help people find out their reactive autopilot patterns that end up creating a lot of very predictable problems. And so I do have a free guide called the emotional habits of each Enneagram type. And that's available at the link in the show notes. And if you happen to be a sensitive type where you find out that a lot of your very important but big feelings tend to show up at the wrong place, the wrong time, or in the wrong way. I have another free guide called the Big Feelers First Aid Kit and that's also available in the show notes. So that one helps you find out what to do when your emotions show up in very unexpected ways, so that you can carry on with your day without judging yourself

Rim: Lovely. That sounds great. Thanks a lot. Thank you. And that's it for today, my friends. I hope you enjoyed our conversation and that it inspired to explore and inquire on your instincts and how this awareness can shed some light into your emotions, your thought patterns, your reactions. And also to be curious about the others around you and see how we can all learn from each other and keep growing.

And I'm sorry if there were a few sound, like technical hiccups. There was a struggling internet connection. And well, you know, that's how it is with tech, but we still managed to do it. So hooray to that. And on this, on this note, see you next week. Bye bye.

Thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode and if it has inspired you, please share it around you. Also, if you feel called to it, please subscribe to the podcast and give me a review. It really helps to spread the word out. All your questions are welcome. You can sign up to me on Instagram at rimcreativenergy.com or email me via my website rimcreativenergy.com and don't worry, I'll share in the show notes exactly where to find me. Until next time, sending you loving creative energy.

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”