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I was a panelist at the EnneaSummit 2024 for the Enneagram Practitioner Panel.

In this video, we share our experiences and observations about what different Enneagram types think they need in therapy, what they actually need, and some important growth steps so they can grow beyond their type.

Panelists:

• Eden Hyder (Type 2)

• Stephanie Cross (Type 2)

• Jordin James (Type 3)

• Amanda Nagy (Type 3)

• Joanne Kim (Type 4)

• Boonie Sripom (Type 4)

Get the EnneaSummit All Access Pass so that you can see the 30+ other talks, including with Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Curt Thompson!

Transcript

Real-Life Stories of Growth

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Welcome to the Heart Types Panel here on the Enneagram and Mental Health Summit. I have six panelists with me, two type twos, two type threes, and two type fours. And the goal of this panel is to supplement the 25 main sessions here on the summit with real life stories. And these brave individuals and coaches with me are a blessing to us because they all are going to share a little bit of their story about their own mental health journey and talk about it through the lens of their Enneagram type.

And so I have here with me, here are the six panelists. I'll start with the type twos. We have Eden. She is a licensed therapist, mom, and psychology teacher out of Charlotte, North Carolina. She is an expert in attachment and works with couples and individuals as a relationship coach across the country.

Eden also specializes in treating eating disorders in teens and adults. Currently she is, she has a thunderstorm, in her city. The next two is Stephanie Cross. She lives in Lexington, North Carolina with her husband. She has worked as a writer and editor for the last 10 years.

When she's not working, go find her at the gym, traveling, exploring outdoors and hanging out in coffee shops and working on her newest interest, writing a young adult fantasy novel. Okay. We got the threes up. We have Jordin James. She is a trauma kid who has learned how to feel genuinely happy and safe in the world again.

Her home base is Portland, Oregon, but she works and lives all over the world. She has a coach who helps narcissistic abuse survivors feel safe and happy in relationships. Amanda Nagy is a certified Enneagram coach, psychology instructor, and health coach. She has three years of experience in coaching, 17 years teaching high school and college students, and 13 years of school counseling.

Amanda is a Texas native, but has lived in Idaho for the last 22 years. And last up, we have our type fours. We have a Boonie Sripom. She is a personal development coach for sensitive and creative individuals, especially geeks and gamers. She also offers worksheet workshops and consults on supporting neurodivergent learners to therapists, educational organizations, and parents.

And she lives in California. And then we have Joanne Kim. Lastly, she is an Enneagram and brain spotting therapist in Silicon Valley. And she helps people discover and grow beyond their emotional reactive patterns, massage out their painful, emotional knots that keep them stuck and transform their biggest feelings into their greatest superpower.

Okay. Thank you so much y'all for being with me. I just want to applaud your courageous hearts and wanting to share a little bit of your story so that we can all learn and know that we're not alone. So I just want to thank you right off the bat for joining us today. So without further ado, let's kick things off, with Stephanie.

So would you spend a few minutes, Stephanie, sharing what your diagnosis is or your mental health battle The mental health battle you faced and just a little bit about your story.

Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Sure. I'm Stephanie and I am a two. I have struggled with mental health my entire life. First starting with depression and anxiety because I was bullied.

Then growing into, grief over the last year. I lost my brother who was like my happy place, happy person and like biggest offender and protector growing up. So, that sent my two heart into a bit of a tailspin, a little bit of like maybe even an identity crisis there for a little while. And it was so hard as a helper type to be the one who needed help all of this.

And I had no idea how to ask for that, no idea how to ask for what I needed. And it was also a huge struggle to have patience with people who didn't show up the way that I would have and to see that like, man, I didn't always do things the best way, other friends who were grieving and so it's been a huge learning process, a learning curve, um, and obviously like the diagnoses of depression, anxiety, and PTSD, like really play into that as well.

So, that's kind of where I am on my journey. It might be a little bit hard to talk about, but I'm going to try to do my best with that. It's still somewhat fresh. Um, we'll hit the year anniversary, August 25th. So still pretty, pretty new and learning to navigate all of that. But, um, yeah, so I would say as a two feeling very hopeless, I was probably the most difficult thing for sure.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thanks, Steph. what have you been doing to, just cope, make it, make it through? Like, what kind of support have you had? Can you just talk a little bit more about that?

Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Yes. So, one thing I will say is like, we didn't have a huge, like, church community were involved in our church usually, but we were in a transitional period.

We're both kind of starting over in different areas of our lives. So, my husband and I, the biggest thing for us was having a huge family base of support here. We had one person, one precious person that showed up every week for a month with food. And others that would come by and say, Hey, have you been out to see the sunshine today?

Like, that's probably a good idea and would come and pick me up and say, let's go hike. Let's go for a wal, let's go get coffee. Tell me about your brother. Tell me some stories. So I think that's been really one of the most helpful things is the, you know, as a writer, like I believe in the healing power of stories and of telling your story.

So having people come in and ask like, Hey, what are some of your favorite stories about your brother? Like whether they know him or not. And that's been super helpful. That's been a really great way for me to cope. And I also write letters to him. So when I see something that reminds me of him, or if I have a really hard day, or even if our family experiences something new that I know he would have just loved, I will write it down like I'm talking to him and that's been really helpful as far as coping.

I also unfortunately have a couple of friends who lost siblings this year and so we have our own sort of weird sibling grief club and it's like the worst membership ever but I'm really thankful for them, thankful for their openness and empathy. There are also a lot of great grief communities on Instagram and Facebook that I have been a part of that have been really helpful in that journey.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thanks Steph for just being vulnerable about just going through loss. I know that's really hard. Sure. And I know it for twos, you know, for twos, nines and sevens, being a part of the positive outlook group, there's a propensity to try to stay positive, through, grief through loss, going through a conflict, try to look on the sunny side.

Have you felt that as a two and then how have you reconciled that with like healthy grieving?

.Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Yeah. So, I don't know. I think everything just kind of got obliterated. Like, when I got that phone call, it was like, I don't even know who I am right now. I don't know how to feel. So, I don't know that I even really responded, like, in the typical way that a two would.

I guess I did it first, and my husband had to pull me aside and very gently say, like, Hey, I just need you to know, their grief is not your grief. You don't have to feel for everybody else. Like, everybody feels the grief differently. Your parents are going to feel it. And you're going to feel that too, because you don't like to see them hurt, but you have got to take space to feel it for yourself.

But I think for the most part, I, I was very numb and very, I kind of reacted in the opposite way, and really shut down a little bit more. And, then kind of reacted in extremes like later on, but initially right after it was more of a like silent introspective kind of thing.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. And I know for most twos are very active in helping others and they're moving, they're always drawing toward being drawn towards others.

But, and, and I know you, as a friend, you've been one of my editors. I've been really appreciative of you. And you've communicated to me that you've sort of scaled back your work. And so I just find that very healthy. So tell us a little bit about, how you set boundaries to create more space to, to grieve and go through the season, and not overdo it and not try to just work more.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Yeah, sure. Sure. So, yeah, I could have had like, the desire to dive more into work. And I think there is a little bit of that temptation because you don't, when the feelings are so overwhelming, you just don't want to deal with them at all. And I only took two weeks off right after my brother died.

And I honestly think I should have taken a little bit more, but thankfully - again, because I have a wonderful husband, he was like, Hey, I've got us covered. You take the space that you need. If you only want to work five hours a week, fine, we will figure it out. So, I ended up reaching out to clients that I had, you know, current workloads with and just saying, Hey, I'm so sorry I understand if you need somebody else, I can't get this done in this amount of time. And thankfully I had really wonderful clients who were like, absolutely anything you need, we want to work with you. So we'll hang around and just do whatever on your schedule, but as far as just setting boundaries with that, I had to, I had to play around with it a little bit and figure out what I could actually handle.

And I ended up settling somewhere around like four or five hours a day. And I thought that, you know, by this time this year, maybe I would be taking on a little bit more. And I do have days where I do an eight hour day, but it's actually not. It's just not something I'm ready to dive back into. I've learned that I needed to take some space for myself to have gym time and time outdoors every single day.

That's just helpful in general, but especially when you're grieving, it gives me a little bit of uninterrupted time to think, and to really process what I've been feeling. So I'm very grateful for the ability to, like, take a step back and just know that it's, it's all going to be fine.

From Darkness to Light: Jordin's Journey of Healing and Resilience Through the Lens of an Enneagram 3

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you so much, Steph.

We're going to transition to Jordin and her story now, but I just want to let you know if there's anything you, you forgot or things you wanted to share, but, just didn't get a chance to so far we'll circle back and you can share at the end, but, uh, thank you for inviting us.

And to sit with you and your couch right there to hear your story. And I'm just proud of you for some of the steps you've taken to, as a two to set boundaries, um, and to take care of yourself in the midst of loss, I'm just really proud of you. Thank you. Let's, switch to Jordin.

Jordin James (Enneagram 3): Yes, thanks, Tyler. Hey, everybody. I am Jordin James. So yeah, mental health has been a real hole that I have had to crawl myself out of starting at the very beginning. My childhood, like many people's childhood was really weird. It was riddled with narcissistic abuse, emotional incest, and a lot of alcoholism.

I didn't know that it was weird until like actually looking back and being like, Oh, you didn't have to worry about inviting friends over because your dad was like, passed out on the couch. Like, oh, I guess that was a little bit weird. And so it's actually really, helps looking back to be like, oh, no wonder I was so sad.

Like, no wonder I was so depressed. No wonder I turned to self harming and suicidality early on when I felt like there was no, there was absolutely no support. Actually it's made my threeness, my Enneagram type threeness make a lot more sense because I remember having the thought back when I was, I don't know, a kindergartner of like, okay, when I go over to my dad's house this weekend, like, I'm not going to make him mad.

Like I am going to be so good. I'm going to do all the right things. I'm going to impress him. And so, so like that chameleoning that threes do was like a life or death kind of technique for me growing up from really early on. And I felt safest when I performed well. Like by far, like if I didn't perform well, my dad raised me to be like this big basketball star, which is another part of my three trauma of always needing to be impressive, but if I didn't play well, I felt like legitimately unsafe, but if I played well, I was safe.

And so like performance was, is not only like an ego thing for me. And I think for most threes, it's also like a fundamental, like safety of existing. And so, growing up, especially in high school, I put a lot of pressure on myself that turned into self harm and suicidality and depression. And, luckily, I don't know what it is.

It's just like this inherent resilience that I have that I just kept going and trying to heal. And, but what I realized is my own three tendencies trying to heal themselves. So like, I would try hard to figure out you know, what's wrong. I would try hard to get to the bottom of, of my pain. I would, you know, so I can root it out and figure it out.

I would try hard to like do all the right things to like be somebody that's healed now. And I was really just like trying to heal my trauma with my trauma and what, like eventually I realized that like my healing, like I don't actually heal myself. Like there is this force of love, there's a lot of different words that you can use for that love, there's a lot of different kinds of love, but there's this force of love that actually wants to do all the healing work for me.

I just have to let it, I just have to like feel my feelings and let love meet me in those feelings and like understanding why I'm feeling my feelings is not a substitute for actually feeling them. Which was really, really hard for my threeness, and it still is, to not just, like, try to do literally anything else other than feel my feelings.

And the other thing that I noticed as being a three and trying to heal my trauma was that threes have this tendency, I for sure do, have this tendency of, like, trying to heal everything in a vacuum. Like I'm going to go behind the curtain and I'm going to like, work really hard and improve myself really hard.

And then I'm going to like, go out and live my life. And then I'll go out and, and show up. And like, I had this, this fantasy that I can heal every, all, I could do all the vulnerable work in private, and then I could come out and like impress everybody. You know, I'll come out when I'm more impressive. And, and much to my dismay, I think it's a flaw in the universe, but.

Healing actually happens when I just interface with life exactly as I am. And like, I let people see me before I feel ready to be seen. And when I let love see me exactly as I am right now and all my mess. And eventually, like, when I, when I started doing that, when I started just going out there and failing, I learned that even in the deepest, like, most barfy pits of failure, that love is still there.

Love is still there. And so, like, failure doesn't actually equal this unsafe, complete abandonment of love. But I couldn't have understood that if I just kept trying to heal without actually, uh, living my life. So, I got really good at healing and I got really good at helping other people do the same thing.

Cause it's just like a, just a different orientation and then love does it all for you. So that's what I've been doing for the past five years now is helping other people, let more love in and let love do the open heart surgery for them.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Beautiful Jordin. I didn't want to cut you off, but I really resonated that as a fellow three. I wrote down, I don't heal myself. That is huge. And the three is listening. We need to hear that over and over again. We can't heal ourselves. That's been a constant theme throughout the summit as I continue to interview people is I don't have a lot of threes and that show up in my office, for whatever reason, threes do.

Think that we can heal ourselves and that we don't need somebody else, but we have to show up and I love, you said, like, meet with love, like have an encounter with love. That's beyond ourself from within ourselves. And I also wrote down, I'll come out, I'll come out of the hole when I'm like more impressive.

And like coming from like ministry world, there was a lot of unhealthy, like Superman Cape stories. Like people would share their story, but it would sound like, and it was very like three, like, like, you know, I was in the trenches of drug addiction and then I, you know, made this change and now I'm back on my feet and I'm a spiritual leader and I'm doing all these things.

And it's like, well, okay. Take the cape off. And just like, let's have some store. Let's research some stories on stage where people were, we're still in the thick of it where we haven't cleaned ourselves up. We haven't seen the results yet. We're just in it. That's really, really hard for us.

Jordin James (Enneagram 3): Yes. Yeah. I, I realized that healing actually happens when our vulnerability and love meet.

And like, in order for that to actually happen, that means I have to be vulnerable. It means I have to like, let people know that I'm also human and messy. And that's really hard as a three. That's like shaking in my boots kind of hard.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. Well, that's why this is so powerful to hear your story as a three, because you're, you're giving it like an unvarnished, no Instagram filter kind of version of your story.

And I just really appreciate that. I'm sure a lot of threes I really read are just, Benefiting from like me from hearing your story. So thank you so much, Jordin, and if you forgot anything, you can circle back and, and share here, at the end too.

Okay. Let's transition now to Boonie.

If you could unmute yourself and jump in and share a little bit of your story, we'd love to hear from you.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): Oh, gosh, I've just so immersed in other people's vulnerabilities. Let me regroup a little bit.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I love that you're not just thinking in your head. Okay. What am I going to say next?

What am I going to say next? But you're immersed with this, our stories. That's I love that.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): Fun fact to share with other fours who are considered the special snowflakes. I did dye my hair the day before for this to stand out a little bit. Gotta, gotta be special. Gotta be unique.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I noticed it. It's great. Thank you for noticing.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): So, I, let's see. I guess the conditions or diagnoses I will talk about are codependent traits, working through personal depression of the four and autism. So I guess I will be perhaps a unique, a double unique flavor of four because of the neurodivergence, but I'm assuming a lot of us are not.

Have some sensitivity traits differences. Anyways, I'm guessing all of us do. It's all a spectrum. And so, let's see, how do I shape this? I know when you reached out, you were talking about this one video that I made. And so I think I'll lean into it that way, where If you look at that video, it was made I think six to eight years ago and my energy, my demeanor, my wholeness was so different from how I am now and I think that's what you were mentioning Jordin earlier about being present in your vulnerability.

I think as a four, we thrive off of being the vulnerable mess, and just being a muck. And that's the only attention that we could ever believe that we deserve. Being seen as and so I doubled down on that identity and presented information as a wounded, highly sensitive, vulnerable person where people would come and try and save me or protect me and feel like, oh, poor you, like, no, I get it.

It's like, I totally understand how you feel, at the same time, because of that, it limited who I was. for a long time. I was able to, here's the gift and the strength of a four, we're able to tap into this raw feeling of how other people are experiencing pain, grief, loss, questioning who they are. And that's for us an ability to tap into the essence, right?

An essence of a person. But because of that, We're stuck in this loop of, I can only feel seen when I am pained. I can only have value because people have shown me and given me attention when I am the sensitive snowflake. And so we're repeating and having this confirmation bias of like, I need to seek out relationships.

I have this antenna now. So the codependent traits is like, I'm seeking out relationships where someone, you know, Is may not be the best for me, but because I am so wounded and I think that I can only be seen as my vulnerable wounded parts, I'm going to seek someone who doesn't understand me. And that's the core wounding of a four, right?

We feel constantly misunderstood. So I'm going to do, I'm going to damage myself even more, find someone who doesn't get me, even though I know they don't get me. Unconsciously, I know they don't understand me. And so I've been in relationships. And, um, the universe has guided me out of that. But in the past, I've constantly been seeking out people and systems and social circles where I would look for that confirmation bias of I'm close to being understood, but they said this one thing, I feel suddenly rejected.

There was this one thing that I did and they misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I'm getting so defensive and overwhelmed. I'm getting emotionally hijacked. I don't think it's worth it. I'm going to now confirm my identity as the outlier, as the alien. I'm going to run away. I'm going to hide. I'm going to withdraw.

And so it's perpetual, this pattern. It's so exhausting. I'm so tired of it. And so like, we do that as a four. And then as my wing kicks in as a five, I will double withdraw and intellectualize of like affirming just the reasoning. So like Jordin said, we're writing the reasons for why. So like, I'm really good at explaining how and why happened, something happened, but to go into it is where the truly healing works.

Right. And so I think that's interesting because like, I'm sure Joanne will probably say something similar where with other types have a difficult time of even acknowledging the darkness and the pain, the depths of their vulnerability. We hold on to it too much where I actually find it a funny life lesson for me as a four to give myself permission to feel joy, like to feel successful and to actually stand out and embrace my light and have people witness me for what I'm actually good at.

Because I've been seen as Eeyore for most of my life. Like I'm just grumpy and I'm sad, but I know there's more of that, but I struggle sometimes where if I go out and have successful moments and then people give me attention for that, is that actually me too? And so there's this integration happening over time, right?

Where it's just like, I don't know if I actually like it. Is this good? This is good feelings, you know? And so I think that's an important part of us as fours where we will double withdraw because it's this shifting of your psyche of if it's so true. You start to lean into your self betrayal and abandonment of self when you realize, Oh shoot, I've done so much of the contribution to me living a life where I have been rejected, misunderstood, and seeking someone to see me.

It's like, Oh my God. And so that's a lot of pausing to withdraw on purpose. And so the intention comes out where instead of me reacting to the moment or the incident that happened where I run away because I have to confirm that I'm misunderstood and unwanted, I don't belong. This time I will withdraw on purpose to reflect on how am I contributing to what has happened?

And is there a possibility that I saw it a certain way? So I just was rereading. Riso, Wisdom of the Enneagram, before they had to prepare, and so there was this one part of like how we feel our feelings so much that we identify with the feelings instead of actually the experience itself. So I, I thought that was a good point.

So fours can really reflect on this, where if something emotional does happen, it's this, do the emotions exist forever? And realistically, maybe for a long time for us, yes. At the same time. Not consistently forever. And so I really want to meditate on that because it is true. There's some things that we don't believe to be true, but when we allow our emotions and cognition to separate.

It gives us an ability to really empower ourselves, and I think that's something that can be a strength, even though as a quiet, you know, moody person, I know I'm always going to be moody. Like, that's the thing that I think is realistic, too. Those are things that are going to, quote unquote, trigger me or make me feel like I don't belong.

But if I separate myself from the emotion and just pause a little bit, I can come back into the circle, the social group that I thought I was rejected from. And that's like the biggest thing, I think. I can share with fours, like, just go back, like, even though you feel like you were rejected and maybe you were feel strong enough to believe that there's something that they can offer you and you can offer them.

It's just like, you cannot constantly feel rejected from the whole world. That's impossible. You know, as a gamer, it's like numbers wise, it's probability. I know that sooner or later, I'll find someone that I can get along with. And so that's what I wanted to share.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I could, I could listen to you all day. This is I just really appreciate you sharing.

And, especially we talked about earlier, my son being on the spectrum. And so I'm just absorbing everything you're saying.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): Do I sound like him? Like when he talks about stuff?

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): No, he's we think he's a type eight. So it's really interesting, seeing kind of the differences and we're gonna have a parenting panel on the summit here.

And we'll be talking about kind of our children and you know, what types we think they may be. You can't always type your kids too young for sure. But I just knowing the Enneagram now for a while, and my son's 10, we think he's an eight. So it's really interesting seeing, some of the, the autism traits and then also the type eight traits.

And how they mingle together. It's very, very interesting. So I'll be talking a little bit more about that on the parenting panel, but I forgot the video that you mentioned. And I just remembered it's the how to defend yourself video that I saw on YouTube. Explain why you, you did that video. Because I think it's, I think it's really important. You said you might not have been in the most healthy space or something like that.

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): No, I was not.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): But I, I saw it as a positive thing when I saw it. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I need to have Boonie say that. So what, what do you mean by how, like how you were advocating to others to defend themselves? Like, how have you felt like you needed to defend yourself?

Breaking Free: Embracing Self-Acceptance and Letting Go of Misunderstood Perceptions

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): And so identity is a really big thing for me because I want it reflected meaningfully through the relationships that we have. and the mirroring that I get in this world. It's incongruent in certain ways because if I say something or if I present a certain way and someone will look at me or say something, it's like, that's not congruent to how I see myself.

But if someone's joking about me with my autistic, like, traits or the things that I like, all of a sudden, wow, this world is completely different. And now it's kind of like a shattering of my perspective because Why is it so different? Why is mock me being mocked? Why is it made fun of so much? Or even the people in my life who were part of my life, the things that I did do and like, they were embarrassed to be around me because it was so abnormal.

And so there are these things where I was just trying to explain for me as a five wing cognition is very important to me. I try to explain my thought process so people can pick that up and be like, okay, you have a reason for liking the things that you like. Okay. Just because I don't understand that doesn't mean it's wrong.

It's just now I understand the thought process. That makes more sense. All I ever wanted to explain was the logic behind something. But because people considered it, instead of me explaining who I am, they consider it defensive. It's like now I'm being perceived as defensive instead of trying to stand firm in who I am and explain where I'm coming from.

And that would be such an incredible wounding that it would make me withdraw so often. And it's like this constant in and out process of again, the Tiredness of trying to take up space when you were afraid that someone's going to misinterpret what you say or do. And so, um, I reached this limit of I'm sure many people here have reached a limit.

I'm so sick of shit. Like, I don't want to do this anymore. And so like, what am I doing wrong or what's happening here? And so you're like, okay, what's the big thing? Being defensive, people feeling a certain type of way about your worldview and your sensory systems, and just needing to withdraw, but they're interpreting as you being egotistical, better than them, using certain language to represent yourself, and now, again, the mismatch of perception and identity, it's like, I'm so tired of this, and so the limit is like, who is allowed to receive the descriptions of who you are. Who deserves to understand the inner workings of your mind and your heart? Not everybody does. And I finally had the big light bulb go off, like, this is not working. They don't deserve this. They're never going to get it. And that's where Enneagram work, personality work comes in too.

Are they actually going to get it? Yes or no. And so the separation becomes very clear of like, oh, I don't have to explain. They're not going to get it. Like I'm free. I'm so free. And so I can go somewhere else where I can refill my cup. Like they get it. These spaces where I feel free to have joy and just be seen as who I am, like all these people, I'm sure we're going to come to the same conclusion just as we are, right?

And so there's again more space to not react of, they don't need to understand. Why am I chasing them? Why do I keep on chasing the wrong people trying to explain who I am when they don't get it, you know? And so that's part of it. And I know a lot of neurodivergent people, we will get stuck in that trap because our, we don't even understand our brains.

Most of us don't. We follow the TikToks, we follow the memes, but a lot of us don't really get the mechanisms happening. So there's like the body part component too, which I'm just going to recommend. Please go seek out occupational therapists. They will help too. Just, okay. I think I'm done. I'm done.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That was so helpful and so important, um, to teach others advocate to defend themselves and for us to pick up that torch, say, Hey, we want to defend you.

Me and my wife are constantly defending our son against neighbors. And people who don't understand him mis, misinterpret his actions. And cause you shouldn't have to do that for yourself. We talk a lot about this when it, when it comes to, people of color in, in majority white spaces. It's like they get super tired of having to constantly defend themselves.

Advocate for the issues when we can step up and we can defend and we can advocate and we can be an ally. I think the same thing is true with like autism, as well, especially, I've noticed like in movies, TV shows, there's certain traits that show up when there's like an a character who has autism.

And if they, if you don't have those kinds of common traits and people might not pick up on it. And those misinterpret all your actions, you know, like Zeke is an eight is very loud. He's full of life and he's just all over the place. So, you know, when he comes in the room as an eight, but in people, but then he still has those social interaction.

They think cues that he misses all the time. And so he, he doesn't pick, he thinks that people are constantly betraying him that are, they're constantly looking at him funny. And then that just agitates him. And then it causes, you know, an unhealthy social interaction. And then other people would draw from him.

He's constantly losing friends. So we're constantly trying to help people understand him, advocate for him, defend him. And so we just need to all do a better job of doing that for our friends and family members. So, thanks Boonie. I really, really loved hearing from you. It was moving on. I think Amanda, we need to go to you as a three, go, go back to three here.

I, missed you there on the, on the list. So can we, can you unmute yourself and share a little bit of your story?

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): Sure. Um, trying to think of like the way to sum up my experience. Cause I feel like Most of my teenage and adulthood life has been struggling with mental health issues. My childhood, I was pretty easy go, performer, entertainer, loved everybody.

And it wasn't until my adult years when like a bomb went off. Um, and I definitely think in hindsight that my issues with depression, Suicide ideation, anxiety, um, eating disorder, food addiction, body dysmorphia, um, and later diagnosed ADHD had a lot to do with being a one on one, uh, three. So image being.

Beautiful having the body type or the dress or any of those things that society valued was so what I was obsessed with that, um, and not being able to ever measure up. Uh, it just imploded on me. Um, I couldn't get skinny enough. I couldn't be pretty enough. I couldn't, uh, wear the right clothes. I couldn't have that, like walk into a room and everybody look at me kind of like fantasy that I wanted to get some kind of value, um, Imploded at that time, and it just kind of kept going into my 20s and 30s.

It wasn't until my later 30s and into my early 40s that I finally started getting some insights and ahas and making connections. And just like Jordin was mentioning, I was going to figure it out myself. It was like. I, we taught my talking to my dad, who's also a three. And I was like, I think it was in my twenties where I was like, okay, I'm really tired of this and I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to fix myself.

And I'm going to have that moment, just like Jordin talked about that moment of being like, here I am. I'm healed. I'm confident. I have value come admire me. And of course that never happened and it won't happen the way I imagine it. Anyways. So that comparing to other people, the competing, I had no interest in being valedictorian or being president of a club or the best athlete, but I definitely wanted to be a attractive, magnetic, charismatic girl. Um, and I moved around a lot. And so it was the, the standard, the expectation was always changing. So it depended on where I lived, what community we were a part of. Um, and then when you're in a religious community and a secular community, then there's like, okay, how am I supposed to present myself?

In this one and then in this one and then when you get into the work world as an adult, you have religious community and personal community and work community. And it just, I didn't realize that that was, I was doing was this constant, like, trying to measure up to all these different environments I was in.

I think my success in getting through a lot of that was my ADHD masking. I think it helped me keep pushing through instead of just imploding on myself. The shame was obviously present. I didn't like it. And it was like, I'm going to figure this out. Where's this coming from? So constant exploration.

And interestingly enough, when I got into teaching and I was teaching life skills and then school counseling, and so I was counseling other high school students, kind of similar issues, you know, I was seeing things in other people, um, and it was like that. I'm going to, I'm going to. Help fix you. And maybe I can fix myself in that process.

But the ADHD thing was a total, like did not see that coming. I was just recently diagnosed at 42. That was definitely a huge gut punch. It was a, I don't know who I am. I really don't know who I am. And so it's a lot of grieving, a lot of grieving, a lot of anger. Interestingly enough, I found that most of the grief came from feeling like I missed out on years where I could have accomplished something.

Like had I known I had ADHD and I couldn't have medication and therapy and help in my twenties, my teens and twenties, I could have done so much more with my life. Like that was what I was struggling with and also the frustration of wanting to accomplish more, but the anxiety or the ADHD or, the depression like held me back from a lot of the things that I wanted to do.

Like I wanted to go do this. I wanted to, you know, be in this position or be in the spotlight for this, but it kind of was always that voice that was like, yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but, um, so there's a lot of frustration there. That push to want to perform and get value that way, but also retreating because the shame and the image and what if I can't.

And so it was this, this crazy cycle that I went through and I'm still going through working on finding value and just being me. Like, I don't have to be pretty, I don't have to be put together, I don't have to have the latest fashion, I don't have to be the best daughter, the best wife, the best friend, if I just existed.

I have worth and value and that still is really hard for me to wrap my head around. So that's where I kind of try to show up and be the best performer at is just being the favorite friend, the favorite, you know, I always tell my husband, I want to be the trophy wife for you. That would be the best thing.

I struggled with emotional eating and binge eating. And so I got quite heavy and that was very hard for me as an image conscious person, because I didn't even feel like I had worth being out in public, like as an ugly obese person, you should not have to look at me. I'm just taking up space. And so that was another like mental thing to work through.

And so I eventually was getting healthy, working out. Of course I took that too far as a three. You know, I was feeling good and accomplishing and I would get my kicks out of telling people that I got up at two 30 every morning and worked out for an hour and a half for five years until my body was like, you're done.

So yeah, so it was just in hindsight, I can just see it. Plainly out there that it was mostly that intimate one on one kind of needing to have that value in my world, whether it was my peers or my parents or friends or all those kinds of things that kind of pushed me.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you, Amanda. I love that you echoed Jordin's comments about I'm going to fix myself because as a three, we just need to keep hearing that, like we, we need should fix ourselves because it is rather embarrassing, to say that we are not six, not having success. We're seeing a successful, and I appreciated you, talking about your subtype that you're a sexual or one to one, three.

That's big. And that really does provide some really, uh, insight into mental health or mental health struggles, because I know the sexual three, more so than the achievements, like you said, the social threes are really into the, the success, symbols, status statuses. But for sexual three, you're really gonna want to craft desirable qualities or craft a desirable image to make others.

Once you more to desire you more. And so I can totally see how that would lend itself to really thinking a lot about body image, exercising, like doing all that you can to sort of craft the perfect image for your loved ones or the people that you really want to attract, did you feel like, and I know Beatrice chestnut teaches that a lot of times sexual threes for women, they want it to be the most like feminine, they want to fit into that feminine box that called the culture, the majority culture wants.

And then for men to fit into that masculine, boxes, did you feel a little bit of that?

Chasing an Ideal: Navigating Body Image and Identity in the Shadow of a Gentle Mother

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): I had an interesting relationship with that. Um, my mother, I'm an only child. We moved a lot, weren't around family. So it was, my dad was a workaholic self pros three. So it was me and my mom. And so her energy, she's a nine.

And her body type, she's very tall and thin was my goal post for a lot of my life. And I am, I got curvy real quick. So yay, middle school years and blossoming. And so I thought I had to have that body type. I was also in the nineties heroin shake, you know? So Kate Moss and looking like you were on your deathbed was the ideal and definitely could not do that.

And then personality wise, my mom's just. friendly and laid back and kind. And I always had friends that are like, your mom is so sweet. We just love your mom. And here I am like opinionated loud, like go, go, go. I'm a fire, you know, like a lot of young kind of masculine energy. I'm also a thinker and a lot of the Myers Briggs.

So there was this. I have to be kind and meek and gentle and sweet and serve, um, and be soft spoken and not have opinions. And I also grew up in the Bible belt. So, you know, you have a lot of cultural expectations. And so there was this, like, I have to soften myself. I have to keep my mouth shut. I have to be more like her.

Everybody likes her. Nobody wants an opinionated, strong female, you know, especially during my growing up years. So I did, I did struggle with that. I had a love hate relationship because I am a girly girl. I love me some makeup and some clothes and all the things, but I also felt that like, edginess to me.

And so I did, I had a hard time kind of resonating with that. And I, I think I still do, especially my husband's a five. And so he's a little more still and quiet and reflective and, you know, I'm completely opposite of that. And so you've got those role reversals in a relationship. Cause I do the finances and, you know, and he doesn't.

And so, It is still kind of present. Getting more comfortable with it obviously is the more I learn about myself, the more I go through therapy, EMDR, brain-spotting, all that stuff has been amazing for me to work through that stuff and then having that space with a therapist where I can just let it all hang out and like, I don't have to worry about other people watching me or hearing me.

Of course, you have to get to that point as a three with a therapist to be vulnerable in front of your therapist, learn to trust your therapist, but having that space for me to just kind of be brutally honest and let it all hang out has been really helpful too.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): One more question, Amanda, you talked about ADHD masking.

That's something that came up in one of my interviews on ADHD here at this, on the summit. And so I was like, when I heard about it, I was like, that sounds a lot like threes. This whole ADHD masking thing. So, and you said you used it to cope. It was helpful for you. So as a three who, you know, we tend to wear masks, what is ADHD masking and how is it, how did it help you?

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): Um, well, one, I think that's why I wasn't diagnosed until much later, because I learned how to adapt my behavior to the expectations. Um, so Matt, ADHD masking is. Um, much like the mirroring that threes do, you know, we're watching people watch us and learning what is acceptable, what is an acceptable. And so ADH doers dears do that as well.

Um, we see that, oh, this behavior is not. You know, we're getting some negative feedback from this. And so you learn to internalize, come up with, um, accommodations, ways to not get that negative feedback. For example, obviously the societal expectation is to show up on time for things, right? And a lot of ADHD people have time management, time, blindness issues and contend to be late for things so you, you overcompensate sometimes. So for example, I have no concept of how long it's going to take me to get somewhere. And that's where a lot of my anxiety stemmed from was, was coming from those things. So I will leave way earlier than I have to, to make sure that I get somewhere on time. So I will get to places. 45, 30 minutes early before I have to. And I'm okay with that because it lessens the anxiety of potentially being late. And so I'll sit in my car and like do whatever I need to do. ADHD, people also have to work on transitioning from one thing to the next. So it is helpful to sit in the car and kind of mentally prepare.

Okay, I'm going from this. I'm going into there. This is what I need to do. So it does help me, but, uh, you learn what is an acceptable. And so that's why I say being a three. And having ADHD that mirror and masking, I think was my, my life force and surviving, uh, thinking about the things that I struggled with.

I don't, I'm surprised that I wasn't hospitalized or really got into serious addictions, different things like that. But I think that was part of it is I just got in that. I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to do it on top of being concerned about the image. What would people think if they knew?

And so that kind of pushed me.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Well, the whole goal of the summit is to help us to have more self compassion for ourselves and more empathy for others. And, you know, you have the normal. Three or normal type stuff that we struggle with everyone does, and then you, the ADHD or other mental health struggles sort of layers on top of that.

So I, as you, when you say that you struggle with knowing how long it's going to take to get somewhere, I'm like, Oh my goodness, as a three, we like efficiency, really getting places. On time and quickly. I can't imagine then having that struggle on top of that, of not knowing, like, like having that value of efficiency and being good efficiency, but then not being able to control that.

That sounds really challenging, really hard. So that's a good, I mean, thank you for sharing that example. That's, that's helpful for the reason the rest of us listening in, but thank you again for, for sharing that you're 42. I'm 42 and I'm going through a crisis as well. My identity as a three, like, what did I do the last two decades for other people?

And what did I do for myself? I don't know. It's our midlife crisis. And I really appreciate you saying, Hey, I wish I would have got sought a diagnosis earlier. Cause I could have been so much more helpful. And that's one of the things that keeps coming up too, is let's, let's seek out those things.

Not be afraid to get help early on because it could change the next decade or two of our lives. Uh, so thank you for sharing that wisdom.

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): Yeah. I say advocate, advocate for yourself, advocate for other people. And now that's kind of my big passion is educating how ADHD shows up for women, especially because we're the population where it's not diagnosed or it's misdiagnosed.

So now that's like I'm on fire for that because. I still, I have a couple of friends that are like I think I might have that. I'm like, well, what have you done about it? Well, you know, my doctor says that I don't have it. I'm like, no, no, no. If, if you feel like that's something you need to explore, like go find another doctor and then go find another doctor.

We have to advocate. So I think that's that three, like encouraging and cheerleading and fighting for people I find coming in now and trying to empower other people for whatever diagnosis they might think that they have or mental health issue that they might think they have. It's like, don't just sit in it, you know, go find help some form or fashion, educate yourself if that's just researching, you know,

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good, Amanda.

Well, I interviewed Kristen Carter, who is the host of I have ADHD podcast. So go, go check out that if you're listening and you want more. And I also interviewed Nate McCord on how ADHD shows up in every type. So that would be another resource for you. Okay. Thanks, Amanda. We have two left, so we're going to go to Joanne next and then Eden.

So Joanne, would you unmute yourself and share a little bit of your story?

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So, I came into this panel. I was like, what should I talk about? And while I was listening to people sharing, I was like, Oh, I was like having like an epiphany just right now. It's like, Oh, I realized that whenever someone asked me about me, I I have like go to tracks of how I can describe myself in my life.

I can like talk about myself as, someone who's moved around a lot, had a hard time making friends. That's track number one. Track number two is growing up as a queer kid in the church. And then like having that whole thing blow up. And then a third track being like spiritual abuse, spiritual trauma, all kinds of stuff.

And so it was very interesting. Just like sitting here, it's like, very Four-ish thing to do. It's like, I can talk about myself according to these like pre rehearsed. Ways. And I think that a lot of my struggles probably came from like this. It's a, I think it's a pretty common four thing, determining the conclusion up front and then working backwards.

Like the conclusion is obviously there must be something wrong with me and that I'm fatally flawed and that nothing can never like help me. And I probably have gone through my whole life and have interpreted different experiences I've had as evidence, but there must be something wrong with me. So it's kind of like a circular argument and you know, even in the ways that I show up in life nowadays might be according to that rehearsal. And I, I just thought that was pretty, pretty weird. Oh, I haven't actually talked about this track in a while.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So that's extremely valuable just to let us in your head already. Thank you.

For allowing us to see that that's, yeah, I'm very intrigued. I want you to talk about all of that for a couple of hours.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I could, don't tempt me, but I think the main thing that I've learned recently is that I am important, but I'm not central. That I come with the experience of being a self preservation four.

So I'm a four that doesn't look like a four. Everyone else on the outside might interpret me or assume that I am basically every other type. It really depends on my mood. And the people who are the closest to me would be able to tell that I'm a four. And that's like, if I even reveal all the crap that's like going on behind the scenes.

And so there's a lot of masking, jury's still out whether or not I actually have ADHD, definitely have had anxiety and depression, PTSD, the full range. But nowadays there, there are two things that are happening for me in present day. One is it might be a possibility that I've identified with Being someone who has anxiety, depression, PTSD.

Then actually having anxiety, depression, PTSD. Like, I'm not going to discount that. There were several moments in my life where yeah, anxiety is like just running the show or that I've been kind of like stuck in the mud. But I think if that's like, that might be maybe like. 40, 50 percent of what was going on for me.

And I think the remaining 50 percent was what my four was doing. It's like, I've demonstrated that there must be some, there is something wrong with me and I'm just going to like squeeze every single juice that I can't add with this identity. What helped me was when I discovered the Enneagram, I thought I was a social four for the longest time because I like resonated with all the four stuff and it wasn't until my Enneagram coach sat down with me for about a year and she was like, I think you should revisit because what I actually ended up doing was to disconnect with my own suffering and outsource it.

So I thought that I was struggling a lot, but from outside observation, no one can tell that I was struggling. I grew up with major RBF, so everyone could kind of tell that there was something going on, but I would never show it. All the meanwhile, behind the scenes, I know how I'm feeling. So it was like super broody and dark and stormy and all that kind of stuff.

But what actually ended up happening was that I was very functional. So my parents had no idea that I was struggling in my childhood because I happened to be very good at school, but it wasn't that I was actually good at school. I mean, I might have had some skillsets, but nobody knew just how much, how many more hours I put towards finishing a project.

Like I would work till like three, 4 AM. And so I think in a lot of ways, like I resonate with some of the things that Amanda shared, like, I think that was a lot of the masking that I grew up operating, like the good easy child suffering silently alone was like probably the way that I survived throughout life.

To the point where now I, inadulted, I painted myself into that corner. And later on, like six, seven years ago, I met my bestie. Who is also an Enneagram therapist. She's a sexual too. And she was so gentle in the beginning, but now she kind of let me in on her initial impression of me that when we met and she said, yeah, you were just like, like a broken record.

You kept telling the same stories over and over and over and over again. And I think I had learned more about the four to realize that, Like that was probably how I was coping. But the, the issue was. I was already in a safer place. I didn't need to cope anymore. I had already left the, the church that blew up that I was working.

And I, I was the black sheep, the whistleblower, the rebel, whatever back then. And that was just like the identity that I had taken on since I left was, I was a person who founded a huge church family secret and I got cut off from my community and no one understands what the hell is going on. And I have all this power to single handedly destroy this church, but what do I do with all this power?

That was the narrative. I kept telling myself for like the first five years since I left that church, maybe seven years. And I think the more I learned about specifically the self press for type set up, it's like, okay, if I've identified with. Suffering itself, then there will be no healing. The healing will not happen because I've already eliminated as an option available to me.

And so I learned that I have an allergic reaction to joy. I remember to what Boonie shared and that joy for fours is a very threatening experience. It doesn't make any sense, I think, to other types, but I think for fours, it's living life as if the umbilical cord that tethers us to life in the universe has been severed and all of our lives is us trying to reconnect that tether by making ourselves to be very different or unique, or trying to prove ourselves and to earn our worth, or by being the most suffering person on the face of the planet, whatever it is.

And so if all of those things are a part of the type four setup and we have our type of what, but we are not our type. Namely we are more than our type. Then I have to go back to the drawing board and rethink everything. All of my premises, I need to reevaluate because otherwise I'm just recycling the same limited conclusion over and over again.

So nowadays it's more of, okay, maybe I am important, but I'm not central. I'm not the center of the universe. So maybe the world will not fall apart. If I take a break, maybe. I can actually take up more space without other people feeling burdened. Maybe it's okay for me to enjoy things. And even if I open myself up to risk of losing that good thing or whatever, maybe I'm already more than capable of handling that now.

Then I did before. So a lot of it nowadays is more of like, let me just be a single drop of water in the greater life ocean and see where things go instead of me trying to make myself or life be a certain way. So there's a lot of self preservation instinct stuff that I've been trying to work on.

A lot of my anxiety was probably from that instinct going on hyperdrive. It's like planning and predicting and practicing and all those things. And to be upset basically for the rest of the day or the rest of the week, because one thing fell out of alignment instead of just being like, it is what it is, you know, maybe things are beyond what I can perceive and imagine.

And maybe that's fine in the same way that I don't know exactly how hot it's going to be tomorrow. And maybe I don't need to know, maybe I just need to know in real time in the present and I'll entrust my wellbeing to life to take care of me as I need and also to myself to make good decisions as each situation comes up.

So I don't have to. You know, relish in the past, thinking those were the good old days. I don't have to future trip. I could just be here wherever I am. And I don't know whether or not I have ADHD. The question that my husband asked me was, what would you do next, even if you found out? I'm like, I don't know, because life is pretty good right now. I'm self employed on my own boss. Like I get to decide my life to be however I want it to be. Eventually I might find out I might not, but there's some part of me that wants to kind of keep the type four at bay that if I were to find out, let's say if I do or don't have ADHD, that I would go back from birth and be like, this is why I have been, this is how I've become who I am now.

That's a story that I think is too small. For where I am now. And so I'm kind of just rolling on by day to day. And, I think trauma, for me is kind of a more open ended thing. Like oftentimes people think of trauma as like a big, scary event, like a car crash or like rape or whatever. And those things obviously are traumatic.

But if it's the case that in each of our types that we can create our own traumatic microcosm. Then how about we give ourselves the very opposite of going beyond our comfort zone and for four, it will be learning how to recognize that maybe some goodness is readily available to me right here and right now.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you, Joanne. Thanks for sharing all that you did. I was. Kinda taking some notes down and I know, thank you for pointing out that you're self preservation. Four. I know self pres four can be sunny on the outside, suffering on the inside. And so tell me, is it a little bit like threes, you know how we talked about as threes, we don't like to go and get help?

Is it true? I know that self preservation four sometimes can suffer, suffer, suffer almost in like a masochistic way. Like they can endure lots of suffering. Yep. And does, do you think other self press fours will. We'll hold on to that. And, and cause I know that I've heard that they can almost feel more special because there's, there's something in such a unique way, but that keeps up press for us from getting help by kind of holding onto that or for you, like, what were you tempted to kind of just continue to suffer in a masochistic way or, you know, what propelled you to then move towards getting help and support?

Breaking the Cycle: Overcoming Counterdependency and the Pressure to Overfunction

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So there's dependency, there's counter, there's codependency, there's counter dependency. Counter dependency is like having an allergic reaction to relying on other people. It's just that in the United States, especially, we have a whole holiday to celebrate independence. And so, like, a lot of that, I think that was one of the reasons why it was so hard for me to break outside of that and still is like, I don't know what's masochistic if I'm just used to that.

That's my baseline. You know, like it wasn't until other people were like, you did what? Like you did how much work and getting that outside frame of reference that I reprocess like, Oh, what I reflexively do is more than what is actually required. What happens if I don't do what if I don't put in that much effort and then the anxiety that comes up usually is a sign for me now that it's my self press for over functioning.

A lot of it, I think that kind of, goes hand in hand with masking. I think self press 4 is like, no one can tell how we're dealing. And sometimes we ourselves can't tell. Because we are our own frame of reference. That's the self referencing bit of type 4. And so, asking for help felt terrible. I missed a step on the stairs several years back and I technically broke my foot.

And I was with my friend, I happened to catch her shoulder. So she kind of broke most of my fall, but I still ended up injured. And I was laying on the floor. And the first thing that came to mind was I asked her, is this the day where I'm supposed to cancel my clients? She's just like, was completely in shock.

She's like, what are you talking about? Of course this is. And I had to like get into a boot and everything. And it just sucked. being injured. But the hardest part of that experience was knowing that I had to ask for people to give me rights. Like the physical pain was easy.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): No, thank you for sharing more of that.

That's really insightful for us to hear about what's going on within a four, especially self press for, and thanks for sharing about your church experiences. Even though they, they weren't, you were sharing some things that weren't positive. And I just, I know that there's people who have used, uused to be in spiritual communities that aren't, and then there's people that a lot of people are watching that are in spiritual communities are going to Christian churches.

And I just want to point out that, you know, even if you have rose colored glasses and think that your spiritual leader or your spiritual community is like, so great, uh, that not all churches get mental health and that's why we're dedicating a whole session to that. When I was starting out as a spiritual leader, I was a horrible, I keep saying this, I was not a good, I did not get mental health.

And as a three, that was still needed to grow up, I kept, I had a lot of work to do in understanding mental health. And so I think it just helps for anybody to go to a counselor, to seek support and get a third party, sort of audit of your spiritual experience and tell your spiritual experience to somebody else.

And for them to be like, you know, that doesn't sound really healthy. Well, let me, let me walk you through this. Cause then, cause sometimes we get googly eyes and we, we just think our, our churches, you know, has the right teaching or has the best leaders or even, even in those situations, there might be some things that are not good.

Going well, and you need to help walking through those things. I grew up Catholic and I was telling my wife about something in terms of like, a relationship to like the, the town, the priest of our town, and she was like, that's not like, what, that, that is not healthy. And, and so like nothing bad happened, but it was just, you know, It was just an experience of like, if we need to be sharing our experiences with our spiritual leaders and community and have somebody else do a little audit of that, because there might be places that, where we need to heal.

And sometimes we can't see that. And obviously our spiritual community is biased, so they might not be able to help us see that. But an outsider might be able to help see that. And you guys are all, a lot of you guys are coaches, counselors, therapists. So you know what I'm talking about, but I'm just stating the obvious for, for those who are watching.

But also I'm going to be interviewing, Audrey Assad on here. And she's going to be talking about, telling her story of spiritual OCD. So that might be an interview that you guys might want to pay attention to or watch. So, but thank you, Joanne for, for sharing your story.

I'm going tof ollow up with you. I need to hear a little bit more of your story. So I'll follow up with you after the panel. Okay. We have Eden. Eden's back from the thunderstorm that her internet got cut off, but she is back. So Eden, can you unmute yourself and share your story?

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yes. Apologies for having to being forced off, should I say?

Right. Yeah, and, and I missed the other two. I'm so sorry, Stephanie, I missed your, your story. But yeah, I'm Eden, and I am an enneagram type two. And I'll be talking a little bit about my history with anxiety and depression through kind of my life. Now as a practicing therapist and attachment coach, I always start with the beginning, right?

Like those early attachment, those early childhood years. When I entered the world, my mom and dad and sister, older sister, had just moved to a new city. And, um, my dad was traveling Monday through Friday. There was no family or support there. My sister has down syndrome. She was maybe a year out of having open heart surgery and here I came, right?

So needless to say, I had entered into a family system that really had some pretty intense Needs and very little room for a new set of needs, right? And that obviously reinforces reinforced in me that primary type to trait of attending to other people's needs and neglecting my own So that was just it's kind of like the perfect melting pot for that Trait to really form and flourish and in me. So as a sibling, I think it's It's worth like stopping there a little bit as a sibling of someone with special needs.

Not only did it feel like there was no room for my needs out of just the circumstances, right? No one's fault, but there was also so much shame feeling a need, right? Because I have so much more than she does. How, how could I even think about? Picking up space here. So that I think added another layer to. Not being in touch with my needs.

I had to kind of work my way through the shame around that. So overall, I kind of grew to be pretty good. I became the like token friend that was the counselor, right? I can really read and anticipate people's needs and it felt a little like maybe three ish at times like I can I'm gonna kind of morph a little bit here based on what I'm seeing and I felt like a superpower really.

The shadow sid of that superpower, there was kind of an undercurrent of conditional self worth manipulation of others. So I could feel valued. That's really kind of just come around into my consciousness. Wow. Like I'm doing these things because I think that this person is going to bring me value and I'm going to create a need for myself in their life so that I can feel validated and affirmed.

That's been a fun one to kind of discover more and more. And really ask myself, okay, what do I want in this relationship with this person? Like, do I want to be friends? Do I want to be acquaintances versus I need them to need me? That's, that's kind of been really helpful. But yeah, shadow side, and then also having a really loaded self critic that can come in, when those personal needs or opinions.

Or that like stress eight, you know, kicks in, a lot of shame around that. And my, my depression, I was thinking about my childhood and I was like, I think I was good. I think I was good. And then like my twenties hit and I had left my family system. And was kind of dropped into the world, right? And it was terrifying.

Because I was then responsible for the choices that I was making. And I didn't know what choices to make because I didn't know myself. I didn't know what I wanted, didn't know who I was, what I needed. I felt like that moment from, the notebook, except without Ryan Gosling, where he's like, stop thinking about what other people want.

What do you want? Right. What do you want? Um, which is a terrifying question. So like a 20 something, but also really could and did inspire some creativity and imagination and curiosity about myself. My part of my anecdote to my own depression, obviously therapy, my own therapy, some medication, um, but really was songwriting and performing, that process.

It was something I'd been doing since a kid, but I had kept those songs totally to myself. I'd never shared, never performed nothing. So when I started writing in my depression, I just was like, well, maybe I go to a coffee shop and play an open mic or, and it, and it just started flowing. Right. and that, there's so much, there was so much power to the experience of I am standing behind an amplified microphone, right.

And there are people looking at me, hearing my words and hearing my voice and they want to listen. And so that really started building up that connection to myself, my voice, my thoughts, my feelings, um, as well as that self worth. And then, you know, I think another phase was becoming a new mom.

I think anxiety, like, just came in and snuggled up next to me in that phase of life. And part of it was just like my idea of myself being shook, right? I had this concept of myself as this eternally patient. And the token caretaker for like the whole world, right? And I was known as a very patient person and then to experience myself as like so depleted, as very limited.

Um, as resenting my kids and my partner at times, and like what felt worse than any of that, like these moments where I would lash out at my kids, right? It was just completely unacceptable, not in my framework, and there was a lot of wrestling with, you know, okay, who, who am I in this new role with these new demands?

What do I need? How do I communicate that to my partner? And how do I communicate that with my kids? So there's been a lot of, a lot of self care that I've stepped into, which, you know, that, that is like a buzzword and I don't love to use it, but it really has been moments of stillness. Oftentimes when I'm alone for whatever reason, for me being able to get to my core self requires me feeling very embodied, um, and not in my head, not paying attention to the people around me.

I do hot yoga and the room is dark. I love it. No one gets to see, no one sees your sweat, right? Like. Yeah. You feel it, but you don't see it. So hot yoga shavasana is that moment of reflection at the end of yoga class where you're laying there and just really noticing what's coming up in my consciousness, that is a way that I hear myself speak, imagery or in words or in thoughts or songs and really paying attention to that.

So finding a rhythm and working that out with my partner and my life, right? My lifestyle, working that out, finding that rhythm where I stay connected to myself in the midst of all the things that I'm doing in the midst of all the needs. We have a dog, we have chickens, we have a turtle, we have kids, right?

Like, I love being in that role. And I think that's one thing that's we're saying, like, I imagine there's parts of ourselves that we love. Right? Like, in the types that we are, I love being that nurturer and that caretaker, and I love being able to offer a patient, obviously a therapist, right? I love being able to offer that space for people, um, but it's also, it has to be in balance, otherwise I stop being as good as I can be for, for myself and for others.

So that's, that's my 2 cents here.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): if you go to a type two therapist like Amanda, or it's like Eden, you may get a reference to Ryan Gosling, to help, you know, your mental health. So just to let you know,

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. To be, to be fair, I have not, I haven't seen that movie probably since it came out.

But it was very profound when I heard those words coming out of his mouth. And you pointed out that relational anxiety might manifest as a two by creating needs that you can meet for people. A lot of the mental health anxieties come for twos is relational anxiety. And so I like how you put that.

Pointed that out. And didn't you say that you felt like you couldn't talk about your needs because you had siblings or sibling that had more needs, right? I think that was really helpful to hear because you might, especially as a two, you might minimize your own needs, especially if you can see other people who are struggling and be like, well, who am I to bring this up?

I'm just going to be more of a burden. And that's kind of a thing that a lot of you guys shared in the panel is kind of the tendency to minimize your, your struggle as it's not being a big deal. Uh, when it actually is, and you're deserving of support and help and, uh, for people loving people to come around you.

And then I liked that you pointed out that songwriting has been a really helpful, like therapy tool. I hear that over and over for twos, like I had no two who does photography and those creative outlets. When you're just going out and doing something for yourself, that's fun and enjoyable is self care.

And, I always tell twos, especially, um, in, in churches where you're, it's continually preached to be self, be selfless, be selfless, be selfless. Well, twos aren't already selfless. They need to be more selfish in the best sense of the word, uh, something that feels selfish is actually self care.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yes. And I didn't, I didn't mention that as well, but I could have gone on a whole church, path, right.

But I think that was one of my major early on. I grew up in the church. That was one of my major struggles with the church because that was not a message that I needed reinforced, for myself, I needed to be valued for myself and I needed my strengths and my gifts and my talents to be mine.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yes, that's what the Engram was so helpful to me because then I can, I'm telling nines now, take up more space, take up more space, but that's not usually a message that's, that's preached. Well, thank you, Eden. I'm going to start with you and then work back to the others on the, on the panel in closing, tell us where we can find you online, any point us to any resources that you want us To know about any work that you're doing. I'll ask that question of everybody. And then if there's a burning thought that you had, that you didn't get to share, now's your time to get it in. So go ahead and work. We find you online, Eden.

Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. I have a group private practice. I come on with my husband. He's also a therapist and an Enneagram Nine. It's called Inside Out Collaborative and that's insideoutcollaborative. com. And then,for coaching stuff that's edenheider. com. I have a podcast that focuses on attachments.

There's just a season out there. It's just a little, little flip, but that's called inside out podcast as well. And my Instagram is @edenheider. I'm not on as much. That's part of self care that's happened over the past couple of years as I'm not as much on social media. I'm more in my body, which is positive.

But yes, I love hearing from people. Um, And yeah, there are lots of good resources on those pages too.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's great. Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah. Um, and I'll post the links that you shared with me. I'll post them below so that people can, can find you that way. Perfect. Uh, let's go back to Stephanie.

Stephanie, where can we find you?

Stephanie Cross (Enneagram 2): Hey, um, so I'm on Instagram. Uh, like Eden said, I'm not on there a ton. Um, but it is storycraftstuff. editor. And I have a website where you can find me for editing services. And sometimes I do blog about grief on there too. Um, but that is storycraftncom.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome stuff. Uh, Jordan.

Jordin James (Enneagram 3): I am on almost all the socials. Um, it's at just Jordinjames. Um, so you can find me on there as a three. I have a lot to express and I am on social media a lot. Maybe, uh, I'm taking some self care notes. Um, so yeah, you can find me on social media. I, um, a lot of my narcissistic abuse stuff. If that's something that anybody listening is interested in.

is on my, in my writing and I write a lot on medium. com. So I think that there's a, there's going to be a link for that as well. And then my, my favorite thing that I just created earlier this year is a 30 day email program called worthy. And it is all about, reclaiming your self worth, your unconditional self worth from the inside, but it's tailored around letting love do the work for you.

So like, I'm really tired of a lot of healing stuff out there that has you working really, really hard to heal because it does not, does not actually have to be as hard as we're making it. Um, so that's called worthy. Uh, it's just a 30 day email. Um, of course it's only 33 bucks. Uh, so highly, highly recommend that.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah, I found you on medium. com too. I found one of your articles and I was like, well, she is very vulnerable for a three. I, I like it. Yeah. I need to get her on the panel.

Jordin James (Enneagram 3): Yeah, actually that, that I had a burning thought as I was listening to y'all fours. I was like, Oh man, this is so good because I've got, I've got a four on me for sure.

And I've realized that like, My four parts are so gifted and special and deep, and they are weird. They are really weird, and my three parts blame my four parts for why we're so lonely. Like, if you were less weird, if you were less deep, if you could just be more shallow and fit in, like, then we wouldn't be so lonely.

So as I was listening to the, the fours, I was like, oh man, that's like the war that's been going on inside of me all this time. So thank you fours for being so vulnerable with that.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Love that, Jordin. I totally agree with that. Uh, Boonie, where can we find you?

Bonnie Sripom (Enneagram 4): So, my website is organizedmesses. com. I also have YouTube with a similar name, Organized Messes.

You can just find me there. I, So I have a disappearing relationship with my Twitch, but I want to promote content on there because of my love and support for being part of the gaming community. So I am streaming on Mondays and Thursdays. I actually just lecture because I like to info dump at people.

And it's like my history of not being able to just rant about a topic for 30 minutes on end, which is why I initially created my YouTube, but now I'm going to do it with a live. live action with people who can comment and ask questions. And so I've noticed, not coincidentally, I'm sure you all know, there's a lot of ADHDers and autistic people in the gaming community.

And so I found my people. Um, my perception of rejection is, uh, slowly disappearing and I feel like I do belong there. And so if anyone wants to come say hi, you can just lurk. You don't even need to say anything. Um, I'll be there. So, and I also have a couple lectures that I, I have. Recorded for letsplaytherapy.

org. It's through the lens of play therapy by talk about neurodivergence archetypes and video games for therapists seeking to understand the world in a different lens. So thank you.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Wow. I love that Boonie. And I found you on your YouTube channel. Thank you for taking up space and sharing your story. And, uh, I, I love that.

Keep doing that. Okay, Amanda.

Amanda Nagy (Enneagram 3): I have on Facebook and Instagram, uh, two different accounts. nagyonfire is my personal, but I, I do health coaching, ADHD, all that stuff there. And then Nagy on Fire Coaching is more specific to self awareness, typology, that kind of thing. Um, and I wanted to add that the social media actually helped a lot of my Healing because I wasn't active on social media.

I was a lurker. I didn't want to expose myself in any kind of vulnerable way. So I just watched what other people were doing. And when I started, um, health coaching and talking about weight loss and posting those, uh, not so. Pleasant photos. Um, but I didn't want anybody to see was kind of therapeutic because it released a lot of that shame, right?

Like talking about the things we're ashamed of releases the power it has over us. So I actually found it therapeutic to be vulnerable and share a lot of these things, um, in social media and speaking a little bit more about the ADHD and whatnot. So, um, Yeah, for me, it was helpful to expose myself that way and realize, Oh, it's not that big of a deal.

Like the world didn't end and you know, a lot of people are like, I've I'm there too. And so there's that, that space of feeling like, Oh, I'm not alone. And all these things that I'm going through. So

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): It's good. Thank you so much, Amanda, for sharing that. Last thought and we have Joanne.

Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So I have two hats on one is as an enneagram therapist and, I have a free guide that's called the emotional habits of enneagram types.

It's a free PDF. I basically explore what I call the big five feelings. Mad, sad, glad, scared, dumb. And how each type has different relationships with each of those motions. And then with the feelings translator hat on I built an online school for feelings because a lot of the work that I do with clients, people like.

Why didn't they teach us this in school? So I made a school. And so with that, I have a free guide called, The Big Feelers First Aid Kit, basically what to do when messy out of control feelings show up at what seems to be the wrong place, the wrong time in the wrong ways. So that's a free guide.

But I also have the online school where I basically share In let's say 20 or so hours of things that I actually share with my clients in session. But I've had a long wait list for quite some time and also people reaching out from out of state. And I'm like, I can't work with you in therapy. So here's this and said, but that one you can find at intelligentemotions.com.

Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome. I think that's everyone, right? Okay. Well, thank you to all of you for having the courage to share. I know that so many people right now feel seen and are feeling like, Hey, I'm not the only one and feel empowered to go get support or seek out support. So thank you so much for your courage and vulnerability.

And for those of you watching today, before you head over to the next interview or the next panel here on the summit, remember to do things, seek support and share compassion because you are not alone.

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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.

JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT

Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.

Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)

The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:

“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”

“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”